Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

US and UK to now furnish Australia with nuclear submarines.

1678911

Comments

  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If all this happened while the UK was part of the EU, they could be penalised under the fair business (or whatever it's called) EU regulations, for undermining an active contract.

    France won the contract under normal tendering process, so I don't see the comparison with the UK being in 5 eyes.

    The UK being in 5 eyes (and what 5 eyes stand for, lower encryption etc...) went against EU privacy laws, which the UK's membership was frowned upon, but seen as a necessary evil under the "War on terror" guise (they got around the privacy law thing by letting the US spy on UK nationals and visa versa, so they "technically" didn't break privacy laws)..... but other EU countries didn't want to join and take part in the level of monitoring....hence why you have 9 eyes and 14 eyes....



  • Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭hahashake


    There are so many factors in this, US and UK sharing tech on nuclear subs since the 50s is one (e.g. there is UK-made tech in American subs), another factor is that French lands in the Pacific cannot be taken for granted, there is a trend towards New Caledonian independence in the referendums, with one coming up this year.

    I also genuinely think the US wants an EU army, as the global focus shifts to the Indo-Pacific - which will be the economic and military centre of the world in the foreseeable future.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If there was a substantial EU army, I'd imagine it would take some of the burden off the US of having such a presence in Europe



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,103 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    No it won't. Nothing about the NATO arrangement will change, because the Germans appear to be completely incapable of handling the concept that they need to spend some of their precious geld on defence. To a lesser extent, the same could be said for some other EU states.



  • Registered Users Posts: 831 ✭✭✭hahashake


    I can't see an EU army for a long time. Apart from France there doesn't seem to be the political will.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,911 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    The notion of an EU army is long-term.

    It's not just assigning troops, it's a need to streamlining equipment requirements and homogeneous equipment.

    NATO has standards for intraoperability and ammunition and so on but there is still a huge range of equipment from rifles, and boots through to tanks, aircraft and transport that are all at the whims of individual procurement and countries self interest with regard local industry.

    NATO took a step towards homogeneous equipment in the 50's with projects like the NBMR-1 that led to the G91. It was quickly and quietly abandoned as each country went about ensuring its own interests.

    The consolidation of European defence industries into the current conglomerates makes the standardisation of any future EU military force a given. The requirements driven by a top-down specification and work allocated on workshare to keep local industry ticking over.

    This is really a topic for a separate thread but a train of thought has been set in motion on how an EU wide military force would work?

    I certainly agree with and see the need for a well equipped rapid response force. Take the EU Battlegroup concept and expand it. Where I do see problems for expanding that further to an "EU army" is this.

    What manner of deployment and structure would it follow? Not just as an overseas force but in the mode of its training and basing? Would each country still recruit, train and deploy its own forces? What would the command structure look like? What would actual deployment look like? Some modern day version of the 1914 German empire? With the individual states and regiments marching in their own contingents? Or would there be some degree of consolidation?

    If we take the US, India, Canada or China as examples purely in terms of their area?

    We would be looking towards at least streamlining the training cadre to 2/3 EU locations. Similar with air training and Naval too. What happens to long standing and very valued military and naval acadamies? They can't all be kept as viable, would they move to being kept in name only?

    I have gone off on a huge tangent here and feel free to ignore as it is probably more the military forum or even Walter Mitty but the opportunity and risk of such a move are massive and easily a 20yr project that the current EU is not capable of undertaking due to national interests IMO.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Would you send your kids to fight in Ukraine? When they get to northern France I might consider it.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Maybe, but why would the US need some kind of back door way of funneling tech to the US, especially if they are then going to publicly announce it?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If they came in and offered the same submarines for less money, then maybe. But the Australian requirement changed, making it irrelevant, if it was in the first place.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    And if there were to be an Eu army, it would not be any larger than the Eu member states currently contribute to NATO.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I would imagine the French idea of standardization would be simply to buy everything French.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    (edit) Doesn't the intelligence cooperation between US/UK/Australia etc predate UKs EEC (EU) membership?

    This doesn't look like a typical "sale" of military equipment and I'm no military expert but (as pointed out by another poster) these are very potent weapons and on another level to what France was selling Australia. That's the whole point of it and why Australia wants them (fear, they think they might need them to deter China).

    Being out of the EU creates more distance + opportunity for the UK to take independent actions like this (well, independent of the likes of France or Germany). 

    Yes the UK could theoretically do this secret deal inside the EU, but is it likely?

    I think it just would have been much harder for the UK to act like that (as I described it before, as a very strong competitor + almost a "frenemy" blindsiding another member completely) while inside the EU.

    Post edited by fly_agaric on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,557 ✭✭✭Markcheese


    It'll be interesting how it plays out - the Americans are on probably on board to get access to ports to base their nuclear subs from - but their flat out building their own subs and apparently short on skilled staff -the British sub is smaller needs less crew than an American design - and they're coming to a stage in their build timeline when they'd have staff to "spare"

    Kind of surprised they didn't just include the french and get them to provide their nuke instead ( wouldn't have left much for the uk though) , but that's probably got a lot to do with the Australian gov not wanting to have to refuel in the subs lifetime - ( 20 to 30 years life ,and the french sub has to be refueled every 10 years ,)

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Eu countries compete against each other all the time for contracts. I would imagine Dassault and EADS have been head head a number of times in Air Force tenders and no doubt German, Spanish and French military shipbuilders the same.

    if the EU had any restrictions on the sale of arms to Australia then fair enough, but they quite clearly don’t, so it’s everyone for themselves.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭brickster69


    I would not be surprised if the Australian sub deal never comes to fruition at all and Australia just allow a few UK & US subs to be based there for a while and then lease some of the US subs that will be available in a few years when the new stuff comes online

    Boeing just opened it's first overseas factory outside of the US to build drones so looks like this has been in the pipeline for a good while

    Also looks like the technology sharing using UK & US new stuff has been looked at for a good while.


    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,385 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Be interesting to see what penalty clause is in the contract.

    And even if the requirement changed the French subs could be build with the original design of power plant. Unless there was deliberate moving of goalposts. Worst case the French subs would have to be refuelled twice during the time they have to do a major refit anyway. Both the French and UK need 4 missile subs to keep 1 on active patrol.

    The UK can't play the reliability card as it's not that long ago that apart from the missile subs, all of their other subs were out of service. ALL OF THEM.

    The inability to dispose of old nuclear submarines means the UK has spent an estimated £500 million since 1980 on storing and maintaining them.


    France has a veto on the UN security council and more importantly in the EU, with which the UK has a massive services surplus.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You're jumping about a bit here. The UK has four Ballistic submarines, of which they need four to ensure that they have a "Continuous at Sea Deterrent". This is completely irrelevant to the conversation, as Australia aren't buying ballistic missile submarines.

    With regards Fleet submarines, when that article was written, the Royal Navy was still heavily dependent on the ageing Trafalgar class and these had become increasingly more and more difficult to maintain, hence the need to replace them with the Astute class.

    I'm not sure what France having a veto on the UN security council or in the EU has to do with anything, are you suggesting that France's tantrum throwing may go as far as trying to block trade between the UK and EU?

    thanks for the badly-interpreted news dumps though, they do keep us amused.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think it's entirely pertinent conversation if you look at the development of the new submarine launched cruise missile by the US, which is expected to be deployed circa 5-7 years time and is meant to be compatible with any platform that can launch tomahawks....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    because selling nuclear tech to an allied country, in a region which is almost at boiling point with one of your enemies could be misconstrued quite easily if it were a direct sale....

    However, say for example an Astute class sub eventually made it's way to Aus (or built there).... you have it built under the guise of "Global Britain", "Jobs for the UK", "not a threatening act"..... where the Astute is full of US/UK tech and interchangeable weapons systems

    as I mentioned previously, plausible deniability

    I really didn't think it needed spelling out, but here we are



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    I'm not sure if you are trying to convince yourself of something? I don't think this is in the world of normal business competition over a contract (even state backed businesses, and strange products like weapons). Trying to shoehorn it in to fit there doesn't make sense to me.

    It reminds me of the discussions here of UK's behaviour procuring its Covid-19 vaccines, another episode I think could not have happened in the way that it did with UK inside the EU. 

    Afair there was a narrative you were fond of there as well at one point (?) that it was all just business and the UK has the better business nous.



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Again, you’re jumping all over the place here.

    people put out tenders for arms, look up the Indian Air Force tender from which they brought the Rafale and the subsequent allegations of corruption and favourtism. Dassault were up against two other Eu based companies for that bid, so I’m not sure why you think the tender to buy submarines would be any different?

    and quite what any of this has to do with Covid vaccines god knows, that is some random **** your posting there.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,911 ✭✭✭✭banie01


    Indeed using just the Indians as an example.

    IIRC, they are operating a russian akula class on lease whilst they develop experience in operations and build their own. Also I think the French might be involved in that with technical assistance?(stand to be corrected)

    Which torpedoes the anti-proliferation argument IMO, if the Russians can let their nuclear subs and tech out? So can the rest.

    The AUKUS deal is an Anglophone deal and is IMO from the US standpoint at least a means of ensuring an Ally in its area of strategic interest is armed with and able to support similar equipment to its own. It also gives Boris a deal to point at that ties into his own notion of an Anglosphere trading bloc that he has alluded to a few times.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,966 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Think we're just talking across each other and about different things now (or I've been saying something about the UK + its govt. post Brexit you don't wish to hear for whatever reason -> accusations of "jumping all over the place + posting random ****"). Pointless carrying on.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You’re right. No point continuing

    especially when you deliberately accuse me of saying something I did not.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,750 ✭✭✭brickster69


    You really do not see what is happening now do you ? France has been humiliated publicly on the world stage the day the EU announce it's Indo Pacific plans, no EU nations have been invited to AUKUS, five eyes or the Quad. They are not not trusted to be partners.

    The world has been watching the events of the last few years and slowly slowly Europe will see everything soon, do you believe it is just a coincidence ?

    Watch what happens this week.

    "if you get on the wrong train, get off at the nearest station, the longer it takes you to get off, the more expensive the return trip will be."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,637 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    What do you think is going to happen this week? Just throwing out a vague statement like that is pretty silly.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Sounds very conspiracy theorists ,

    Nothing has changed,the French threw a public tantrum Boohoo



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    How should the French have reacted? Stiff upper lip, fair play old boy!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,103 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    More so than throwing the fit they have. Apparently Australia is rumoured to have paid those bottomless pitters $2 Bn so far without a welding torch lit. I suspect France was set on using contrived cost blow outs on the Australian contract as a way of subsidising their own sub builds, and that's the real reason they are so miffed.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    I think its more that a pact is being formed in an area of the World important to them without them. Leave Oceania to it and tell them not to come crying when they need help



Advertisement