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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    He's a personal friend, it's in the public domain



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    I've sent him a message to ask him anyway, if he has a problem with it I'll remove it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    I find this bit of information interesting and don't recall hearing it before...

    "Fiona" calls the police with reports of a man in a long black coat around 03:00am on 22.12.1996 at Kealfadda Bridge walking west towards Goleen, away from Toormore

    If the man at the bridge was walking west towards Goleen, he'd be walking the opposite direction to Bailey's house.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Sorry, didn't mean to be picky about it, just could see a lot of work went into it and some people do get a bit irate about sharing stuff. Glad to hear he is happy to share his great work.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah no he wants this solved like the rest of us!! Anything that helps like



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,418 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    Can you expand your thinking on that?

    What's the scenario you have in mind where a killer would want to deliberately obscure another wound \ method of killing? I'm drawing a blank myself but tis early. Thanks.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    It's been mentioned before.

    What's more "Fiona" and her driver turned around in Toormore and headed back towards Goleen. There was no mention of her seeing someone on the road.

    Did the person turn down the Ballyrisode Beach road or did they go into a house off the Toormore to Goleen road?

    In five minutes or so there aren't many places the person could have gone, no more than a quarter mile or so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    These questions as well as lot's of others should have been asked by the police 25 years ago. Since they were neither asked or answered, there is so much speculation today.

    At this point one could only do a bit of motivation profiling. And doing that, Bailey had the lowest motive, Sophie's husband or somebody in the drug business trying to shut her up the highest. I also don't think it would have been the "rejected lover" of one of Sophie's so frequent short term relationships who was "expecting something longer". I would believe that any woman who has such a lifestyle like Sophie would be able to handle any guy who'd feel rejected by her.

    To me it's very clear that the killer must have had the knowledge ( either by himself, or by the one who hired him ) that the police were either incapable or corrupt. One possibility that absolutely no DNA evidence was ever found on the crime scene is that the police were either too incompetent to collect it, or even ordered not to due to corruption.

    Convicting a killer in this murder and having solid evidence to do so is now very much impossible. Sophie's house has most likely been used by her son and his family for various stays, cleaned thoroughly several times, etc... Also any form of door to door enquiry is most likely not going to be fruitful as people move away, pass away, memory fades, etc.... Nobody of us would really reliably remember 25 years ago whom one sat next to on an airplane, who gave whom a lift in a car, who put up a tent somewhere, or travelled somewhere and how full or empty the tank of a car would have been, and if so at what time exactly.

    One thing which seems to be mentioned often, but is in my opinion simply untrue, is that Sophie's house would be "difficult to find" for an outsider. If one had instructions or did a bit of search, or one would have had a good sense of direction one would have found it with considerable ease.

    Post edited by tinytobe on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    Paul has no problem with the PDF being shared, his response was:

    I don't mind and thanks for asking. The purpose is to solve the case and I'm happy if it helps someone. You could share this link if you like, but I don't mind if you upload the PDF to a forum. https://t.co/q5qLIrqBBz?amp=1



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    Sound bloke... great site , thanks for pointing it out..



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    A few things indicate that Sophie had a companion, not only at the petrol station.

    While the Guards made it known they believed they knew Sophie's movements on the few days she was here, it seems obvious there is no evidence of her movements from about 4pm on Saturday to 3pm on Sun. 'As far as can be ascertained' by Michael 'the fantasist' Sheridan she was at home on Sat night. There are no phonecalls from the house during that time (in fact all day) and the presence of her car there wouldn't be proof of anything as she could have been picked up by somebody or have been dropped off by someone who was staying with her.

    Earlier on Saturday ;

    "Finbar Hellen and son Jon walked over to Toormore and saw Sophie's car

    at the cottage. Finbar almost walked up to greet Sophie but did not.

    However he anticipated she would come out to talk to them and did not,

    which he registered as unusual to the extent that he told this detail to the police"

    "Finbar (Hellen) and John pass by Sophie's house once again. Again Sophie does

    not come out. Finbar saw Sophie's shadow in the house."

    Then from RTE;

    "Other sources suggest the telephone itself was found beside the bed. Sophie

    was not in her usual 'raised' bed that night, from where she could see the

    Fastnet lighthouse. She was sleeping in another room. One source

    suggests this was for warmth as her boiler was believed to be out of action

    and the normal bedroom was too cold."

    Maybe she was sleeping in another room?

    Two wine glasses, two chairs by the fire?

    But that's just circumstantial evidence.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    Definitely, that level of incompetence by AGS could hardly have been accidental.

    I'm leaning against the "financial hit" motive but I completely agree that the apparent lack of evidence is synonymous with the idea of a perfect (and therefore planned) crime. My feeling though, is that it was unplanned. Perhaps a younger perpetrator, with no history?

    Did MF say she noticed the man washing boots as opposed to shoes?, could she have possibly been even able to make that distinction?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit


    I`m not so sure the Crimeguy timeline is accurate. Foster provides the Sean Murray statement in his book. Murray was the attendant at Hurley`s garage who put petrol in a blue or grey `96 reg Fiesta. But he says it was between 2 and 3pm. Crimeguy has the blonde female and the tall male at the petrol station between 15-00 and 16-00. Murray was also uncertain of the date. He said...."before Christmas, most likely Friday the 20th." Sophie collected the keys of her hire car at 2-30. She couldn`t have been in Skibbereen before 3pm. Murray goes on to say...."I am sure this car was a Fiesta and that it was a hired car because the hubcaps were missing". Sophie`s Fiesta did have hubcaps.

    I think this sighting is a red herring. It is also interesting that people here have been saying that the hire car would have had a full tank. Therefore Sophie wouldn`t have needed to buy petrol. CCTV has her alone on arrival at the airport. She was alone in Schull on the Saturday. The passenger seat was back to the full in her car. This doesn`t mean she definitely had a tall passenger at some point. She could have let back the seat to put luggage on the floor in the front. If she did indeed buy a bag of firewood in Ballydehob, she could have placed it in front of the passenger seat. Her boot would have been full of luggage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    When the case is at this stage, it's only a "follow the money" kind of discussion around the motive.

    Whether the murder was planned or unplanned is completely unclear. There is no evidence supporting either the one or the other. I am personally inclined to believe that it was planned and a professional, rather than unplanned.

    The murderer must at least have known to a degree of certainty that she was staying at her home that night, and was alone and that she would fly back to France soon. Possibly he knew that it was her last night staying in Ireland as well. The murderer would also have been prepared to walk quite a bit at night, and if he was taking a car, the risk of the license plate be be seen would certainly have been very high.

    I am mostly inclined to think that if it was planned, then the husband-hired hitman or the drug trafficing-silencing would have been the motive for murder. The rejected lover or even Bailey visiting would have been unplanned in terms of motive.

    Only the murder weapon, the stone and brick, seem to suggest that it was unplanned and quite possibly done by a non-professional but it doesn't prove anything. However the murderer could have also been to the house before, and have known with certainty that he would find a brick or a stone of a certain size to do the killing.

    Marie Farrell is a completely unreliable witness who recalled her statement about having seen somebody at night, she also walked out of the courtroom while she was under oath and questioned. The latter is a complete no-go. And even if Marie Farrell would have seen and identified Bailey on that road, it doesn't prove at all that he did it at all. It's not a crime to be out at night at Kaelfadda Bridge, it is neither the crime scene nor close and next to the crime scene.

    Post edited by tinytobe on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    @ mamboozle pm'd



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You are wrong. She confirms it. Jules says re IB "he said at some stage he had a funny feeling that something was going on ..very strange something's going on somewhere" The Du Plantier Case RTE 14.45 mins in


    quoted twice cannot remove, sorry

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I`m not so sure the Crimeguy timeline is accurate.

    It is only as accurate as the people quoted - secondary research



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    That is very unlikely, if she was dead when she was assaulted with the block she would hardly bleed so much. No circulation. Photos show a lot of blood soaked into ground



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    I thought about that too, the difference in bleeding between heart beating and stopped would be much more pronounced if a larger blood vessel was torn, otherwise I think it's similar types of soft tissue seepage that would be evident.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    Yes, if planned it points to financial gain or a need to silence.

    I think if Bailey was rebuffed he'd simply consider it a temporary setback and walk away.

    I'm thinking some kind of bizarre, unplanned event, but it's just a hunch, I know your analysis is more logical.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Also reasonable to assume that because of the clothing tightly stretched off the wire the body may have been tilted down with the head at the lowest point.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Also the pathologist would not be fooled if she was, say, strangled he would know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭oceanman




  • Registered Users Posts: 29,418 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    I think we've all looked at a full moon, hearing dogs barking or hounds or foxes in the night and got an 'eerie' feeling.

    I'm not reading anything more into it than that.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    true but the comment i was replying to was that she denied saying it, she didn't



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I wonder if Yvonne Ungerer ever corrected her statement that Sophie left them at 17:45 on her last day, or perhaps it was always just a typo error?

    Sophie was in Crookhaven having tea and scones at 16:45, and left a message on an answer machine from her house at about 17:30 so there is no way Mrs Ungerers time could be accurate. If it was a genuine mistake on her part it would seem a strange one as it would be dark at 17:45 and surely she would remember if Sophie left in the dark or not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    You can only have a logical based analysis, a motive based approach, as well as a financial or benefit based approach. Who benefits from her death the most? I also think that the motive for the murder was very strong. After all, who of us would hike for 1 or 2 hours at night in the cold moist air, possible even lashing down rain, to Sophie's house murder her, and hike back with at least as much planning to know that she was there, and she was alone. ( and if driven risked that he could have been seen, the license plate recognized, etc... )

    Nearly all murder cases are down to money / financial benefit, drugs or drug relates matters or love and relationship matters.

    Other than general violence a lust for murder or a thirst of blood, or a general anger, Bailey would have had absolutely the lowest of the low in terms of financial benefit to Sophie's death. Daniel Toscan du Plantier would have received a financial payout from the life insurance on his wife and avoided a messy and costly divorce. A drug trafficker would have protected his income by silencing Sophie.

    Thus this case can only be profiled like the Jack the Ripper case. We have no evidence anymore, hardly any witnesses, and questions which should have been asked 25 years ago, were not asked back then.

    The murder of Sophie Toscan du Plantier has become nothing more than a subject of discussion in a pub on a long winter night.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    If there were to be a 'best cottages in the world' competitition, I'd put money on that 'cottage' winning. With 13 acres as well. Not necessarily the best house in west Cork. But in the running.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I honestly wouldn't buy any of those houses. They are all overpriced, and too isolated and too many "oddball characters" like Bailey or Alfie move there. For a trip to the pub you need a car, plus one can't drink very much if one is driving so the craig is limited, and even for basic shopping for food you need a car. If it serves as a holiday home you'd need a rental car for the whole duration of the stay. Only other option is bringing your own car taking the direct ferry from France, if one doesn't mind the rough seas, - it's a trip over open Atlantic with occasional swell.

    Yes, the area and the countryside is something one can fall in love with, however I'd prefer the structure of a village setting as a minimum and still enjoy the outdoors and the hiking. Kinsale would be the top choice in the area, but also Clonakilty or Skibereen, if one prefers it more rural.

    Everything about this case is strange, like the purchase of the cottage itself. A cheating husband giving a cheating wife money to buy a cottage in an isolated part of Ireland, and he never even goes there with her? Based on the behaviour it seems like he's happy when she is away from him.....

    Post edited by tinytobe on


This discussion has been closed.
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