Michael Higgins Praises Travellers Contribution to Irish Society

actually no, they aren't, given realistically those people don't really have any problem with traveler culture given they complain about any attempts to address those problems, use those problems to have a go at travelers cause traveler, and make excuses for the discrimination travelers face, including those who do everything possible to be part of society.

travelers are a deeply unpopular group with some, not because of the problems, but because people can generally get away with, mostly unchallenged, spouting either stereotypes or discriminatory language about them, and engage in discriminatory behaviour against them, not to mention expecting them to live up to higher standards then the rest of us, and making their issues out to be worse then all else, not based on the severity of the issue or the amount of the issue that exists within the community, but based on the individual or individuals simply being of that community.

Violence against women isn’t part of traveller culture though, and all your statistics suggest is that violence against women happens among travellers too. You’re choosing to associate that issue with traveller culture so that’s why I imagined you must be making some distinction between things that are associated with travellers as part of their culture and heritage and beliefs and so on, and things that aren’t. Violence against women? Not part of traveller culture.

You say you’re not trying to take their culture away from them, but then you’re saying traveller culture needs to change, based upon YOUR beliefs, and so I’m given to thinking you mean travellers have to become more like you. Toxic masculinity as far as that idea goes could mean anything, but men behaving like men isn’t toxic, and so whatever ideas you imagine constitute toxic masculinity are entirely a figment of your own imagination. You’re simply projecting your issues with travellers onto them as if they’re responsible for your attitude towards them, and on that basis they have to change to assume your culture, foregoing their own that you find objectionable.

Travellers don’t need to change at all. You want them to change. It’s clearly not the same thing, but as it stands they are of equal status in Irish law which pertains to Irish society as a whole, and the issues you observe within the traveller community as you quite rightly suggest are not unique to travellers so on that basis could hardly be said to be part of their culture. There’s a reason they are regarded in equality legislation as being of equal status and that status being a protected characteristic the very same as any of the other eight protected characteristics - because in reality they’re not actually any different as people from anyone else in Irish society, and when given the opportunity are as capable as anyone else of contributing to Irish society.

Unfortunately they still have to put up with the kind of discrimination against their way of life by people such as yourself who want them to change who they are to be more like you, and if they were more like you, you wouldn’t perceive them in such a negative light and you’d be more tolerant and respectful and all the rest of it… which if you think about it for longer than five minutes is an attitude fuelled by your own prejudices which are discriminatory towards travellers on the basis of your own beliefs about them, because you see them as not like you. It’s somehow their fault you’re prejudiced against them. I don’t blame anyone who is resistant to becoming anything like you if that’s your attitude towards other people who aren’t like you tbh.

That’s not any sort of a criticism btw, it’s an acknowledgment that you just have different ideas than other people, and the issue for you is that they have the same agency as you do to make determinations for themselves which aren’t in alignment with your ideas for them which would see them abandon their culture and heritage and ethnicity and pretend at least, that they’re just like you. Your attitude is similar to the attitude on display in the report you linked to - it’s travellers who need to change, not the people who want to impose their own ideology on travellers who need to change at all.

They have call out videos,men and women,calling each out out publicly to fight...of all ages,gangs of them,a lot are related to each other and forced to marry a rival families son to lessen aggro between the 'factions' ... Horrific for the women involved.

Just look on YouTube,it's not a small minority..it's a huge number,and it crosses over to the UK travellers aswell.

Total criminality , blatant, nothing done.

Did MDH give any examples of the great contribution they have made to Irish society?

Would some of the people defending them to the hilt here like to give us 3 positive contributions they have made to Irish society?

Maybe when he finishes his second term(which he promised he wouldn't run for) living in the presidential house, he will chose to go live amongst them.

Would you have a read of what you are writing. If Traveller culture had a practice of killing babies with blue eyes, you would be arguing that in criticising the practice, I am guilty of prejudice.

Denying reproductive rights to women is wrong. Tolerating practices of violence against women is wrong. Arranged marriages are wrong, denying freedom of choice. Taking women out of education at young ages is wrong. All of those are aspects of traveller culture that are wrong. Those who defend such practices are wrong. We are not talking about travellers giving up their music, their language, or their transient lifestyle. We are talking about them treating women as equals, about basic standards of humanity.

I wouldn’t bother arguing at all, I’d simply point out that you’re bringing things up which are completely irrelevant. All of the issues you do raise though which you attribute to travellers as part of their culture, are not part of their culture. It’s entirely an association of your own making. That’s why I’m pointing out that you have prejudices against travellers, precisely because you find their way of life objectionable, and you’re choosing to frame the issues in accordance with your own negative beliefs about travellers.

You speak of basic standards of humanity while ignoring the basic reality that travellers themselves are as human as you are, they just don’t happen to share your opinions of their own culture. Instead of recognising that they have their own culture, you’re keen to foist your own ideology upon them when the issues you raise are not indigenous to travellers, are they?

Again you’ll try and suggest that your issues are part of traveller culture and aren’t simply based entirely upon your own prejudices against travellers. I’m beginning to wonder have you yourself even read the report you linked to, because it’s full of the same sort of nonsense about “cultural sensitivity” and all the rest of it, while still attempting to impose an ideology upon travellers that has nothing to do with culture.

Lol. I wasn't even addressing you Jack but something touched a nerve there by the looks of it... such misplaced vitriol. Have a nice cold glass of milk.

Still waiting to hear about the non boxing related positive contribution this tiny community makes to society 👂

You didn’t touch a nerve at all, I was clarifying the legal status of travellers in employment since you appeared to be of the belief that employers could still lawfully discriminate against anyone on the basis of their membership of the traveller community.

I’ll admit your attempt to portray yourself as a victim did have me confused, especially the whole lefty, no idea of the world of work. “95.5% of settled people”, “our problem” stuff, as if you speak for anyone but yourself.

One thing I say to any defender, those that sit on their ivory tower, those that say it's the rest of our prejudices that's the problem, is that would they send their child into an encampment at hollowe'en trick or treating.

You don’t get to choose how the Government spends it’s revenue in any case, you’d still be paying the same taxes regardless of where Government chooses to spend money, and travellers are entitled to support from the State equally as anyone else. They’re also entitled to campaign for the kind of social and educational supports they need if their needs aren’t being met in mainstream education, same as any other group in society.

You’re choosing to associate their lifestyle with high levels of criminality, it’s not the case that their lifestyle IS actually actually associated with high levels of criminality, but since you mention it, the cost to the State of people who aren’t travellers, is much greater than the cost of travellers in terms of policing, courts and prisons. In that way it’s criminals, whether they’re travellers or not, imposing a cost upon society.

Y’know, the sort of criminal behaviour being glorified and celebrated on our national tv station which is also funded by Government to produce such tripe as “Kin”, a crime drama about a feud between two families of criminals. In that way they impose a cost on society for their contribution to society.

Far more criminal behaviour among people who aren’t travellers than among travellers themselves, I mean if you’re comparing the cost of criminality to society and who is actually responsible for higher costs like, you should be at least honest about it, far too easy to point fingers at travellers as if criminality isn’t also very much an issue among people who aren’t travellers.

It’s not deflection at all, the point was made that travellers lifestyles are associated with high levels of criminality, which seems to ignore the reality that the same could be said of the lifestyles of people who aren’t travellers - that it is associated with criminality.

Now which group costs the State more in terms of prevention, policing, courts and prisons? It’s not travellers. The greater cost borne by the State is the responsibility of people who aren’t travellers engaging in all sorts of criminal activities, illegal and unlawful acts against the State.

That’s not suggesting that individuals who aren’t travellers are responsible for the behaviour of other individuals who aren’t travellers, and by way of holding travellers to the same standard, it would also be ridiculous to suggest that travellers are responsible for the behaviour of other travellers. That’s called guilt by association, which is the very basis of discrimination fuelled by prejudice.