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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A Dream of Death says Gardai thought the killing was between 11 pm and 2 am. That wouldn't give IB much time to get there.

    If Bailey had burnt evidence in the fire wouldn't you think he would know there would be remains and rake it through to get rid of the buttons and boots eyelits etc.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yerwan who wrote that is full of shite.

    It reads like a novel.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    We can only speculate on the time of the killing. The body was left there out in the cold for a long time. The pathologist couldn't establish a time of death.

    I would also speculate that the murder took place at some time between 11pm and 2am. Based on the information we have, the way she was dressed, etc... I am more inclined in thinking that the murder was before midnight, and the murderer made contact just about when she was about to go to bed.

    The Gards messed up so much in this case. At this time, 25 years passed, it doesn't matter what the Guards were thinking and what not, and why they were thinking this or that. They got Marie Farrell into making false statements, so you can form your own opinion how serious this all is.....



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    i disagree . i am only 45 pages in but it is ok so as far being readable is concerned. good as crimeguy anyway. It was man who wrote it. He says the blood on the back door was unknown so seems to be some innacuracies



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    A Dream of Death says Gardai thought the killing was between 11 pm and 2 am.

    i just wonder why they thought that at first, i hadn't heard that before



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    The murder could not have occurred before midnight, she was on the phone to Daniel between 11pm and midnight.



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Polly701


    This thread is going around in circles..

    Regarding the time of death, the photos of her kitchen area the next day show an uncovered loaf of bread that had been cut into - I just don't believe this is something that would be left out overnight. Plus the first Guard on the scene noted 'wet' blood around her nose. There were other indicators too of it being more likely that the murder occurred in the early morning.. Perhaps 6am or so.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    The "This thread is going around in circles" line has been said a few times here. What do people expect, a straight line of conversation that comes to a natural conclusion and the case solved? There's over 6000 posts on the thread. Some contributors haven't read through the whole thing. Some points that get rehashed bring clarity.

    Can we agree to get over the fact that there is inherently going to be repetition here, and that in the interest of keeping the conversation going and allowing newcomers to get up to speed we should just accept it?

    Not having a go at you Polly701, many others have said the same thing over the last few weeks.

    I agree that some of the evidence points towards a morning murder. I'd be inclined to think that myself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    In France they probably would not bat an eyelid at such carry on. I see no purpose at all in trying to connect Sophie's marital difficulties to a list of possible motives for her killing. An assassin hired by the murderous husband who contrives to make the killing look like anything but the work of a professional killer? It's the most absurd conspiracy theory of the many attatching to this case and also this loose speculation regarding her sexual life in Cork is insulting to the woman's memory. Of course it was Bailey who first made reference to both of these theories in his articles covering the case in order to deflect attention away from himself as he was aware he was regarded as a suspect at that point. This was a crime of passion, unplanned, committed on impulse by a local and motivated by... who knows? Lust, jealousy, envy, rejection or personal vendetta or grievance.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭drumm23


    Agree.

    No alcohol in blood and stomach contents (along with the bread and the blood) are more inline with morning death.

    Again, the PRIMARY reason people were led to the “middle of the night” timeline was Marie Farrell and her imaginary friend and her completely made up sighting… Which has to be ignored to make any headway.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Again, the PRIMARY reason people were led to the “middle of the night” timeline was Marie Farrell and her imaginary friend and her completely made up sighting

    Not for me. I was told that the doctor who examined her at the scene, probably around 11.30 am, noted the onset of rigor mortis. Which indicates a much earlier time of death. Also, cold weather slows down rigor mortis. Not sure if the doctors testimony was posted or not.

    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    That's very interesting, the first reference site I viewed puts the average onset time of rigor mortis at between 2 and 4 hours. Cold weather slows the process. 4 hours earlier than 11.30am is 7.30am and there would be a pressing need for a perpetrator to be leaving the scene at a time like that (getting lighter and some people starting to stir). Did someone stay over but sleep in a different room???



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Does anyone else think the table looks a bit staged?

    The rest of the kitchen and living areas look a bit disordered, but the kitchen table looks a bit out of place.

    If you used a match to light a candle would you put the spent match down on a white linen/cotton tablecloth?

    Would you push back the chair you sat on to read the book and either leave it pushed back or push it in fully?

    Where did that blue jacket folded over the back of the chair come from, or go to ? it is not in other photos of that chair.

    The empty cup and looks like a someone had just had a cup of tea/coffee ,but yet the the cup is spotless.

    Was she left-handed?

    If they were about to have a cup of coffee why is the coffee pot washed up on the draining table?

    All this probably means nothing, just me thinking about stuff and writing it down.

    But the jacket on the chair shows a certain casual attitude towards the crime scene to me.





  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Ask yourself what you would do, if someone knocks on your door at 3am. Would you put on some shoes and go outside?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The problem is, in reality we all know so little. Thus the speculation will go on and on......

    I personally do not think that this was an unplanned crime of passion. For that there is too little evidence found, or no evidence at all found by police, possibly deliberately?

    I believe it was planned to a certain degree, and the killer went through her house as well.

    Arranging things or possibly looking for something possibly incriminating. Yes, the table could be staged, but it could also have been Sophie's way to do things? We don't know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    Nobody is lacing up shoes and heading out into the Dark with Doc Martins and night dress.

    This is the morning and they knew the person. Maybe she took the hatchet and threatened them to f*** off or do x,y and z.

    There was an intention to her trip out. She didn't laces up her boots at 3am and step out for a joint. In that cases she has more layers on imo.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Two or more people involved? Was all the land looking right and ahead from her front door belong to STDP. There was meant to have been some dispute about the outhouse/shed right in the middle of this. It would appear to have some way of getting to it off the lane between Alfie's and Sophie's houses. People were keeping horses on the land. Were they paying for this? Wouldn't that be a main focus of investigation?

    We are being told that there is no forensic evidence. There is probably none that isn't from a small group of people that had other reasons to be in the area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Page 16 post #454 The block would appear to narrow things down



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    An interesting question would also have been if anybody but herself would have had keys to the house? After all, it wasn't lived in for a long period of the year.

    Even if it was just a cleaning lady looking after the place every now and then, she could have been as "solid" as Marie Farrell.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I had reason to spend time in Italy during the Amanda Knox circus. One similarity to this case was the loopy chief investigator who decided there had been a group sex/human sacrifice reason behind the murder of Meredith Kercher. Detective Dwyer had Frankenstein's monster at Kealfadda bridge howling at the moon. Other similarities were pressured questioning and disputed statements.

    It became more and more apparent that the murderer was a single homeless male acting alone and the Italian authorities bent over backwards to let Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito out of prison.

    What really amazed me at the time was how, what I consider to be, reasonable, intelligent people were convinced of Amanda Knox's guilt. No amount of pointing out the sheer absurdity of their viewpoint would get them to waiver. There are still a lot of people who believe that they got away with murder only because she's American and Raffaele is from a well off family.

    I think there are two reasons for this, the first being a certain resentment towards America (in our case the English) that many Italians feel. The second is something we would understand and which appears contradictory. It is the automatic throwing of the eyes to heaven what-can-you-do resignation that the state and all its institutions are inherently corrupt combined with an insistence that individuals within it are going about their business with the highest of motives. No one ever loses their job as they say. It's called systemic failure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe



    The thing is some people love the easy answers.

    It's the same in the Sophie Toscan du Plantier case. Who did it ? Ian Bailey, Yeah, Ian Bailey murdered her..... And if you ask why, then there is absolutely no evidence. And the scary thing is that those who think that Bailey did it, don't care if there is no evidence.

    But looking for evidence is never an easy job it's never about easy answers, even worse in this case where so much was messed up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,418 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The sometime housekeeper would have had keys.

    I read something earlier in the thread about the locks being changed following concerns from Sophie that someone had been using the property in her absence such as having a bath.

    https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/locks-were-changed-after-intruder-at-du-plantier-house-said-housekeeper-30242061.html

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    There's about 15/16 acres attached to the property in 9 parcels, 2 of which are shared commonage, I don't know with whom she shared the commonage.

    Maybe the horses were grazing on the commonage.

    The only land at the house was the lawn in front of the house, down which she was reported to have fled ;about 1\4 acre,

    the rest was spread around in different locations.

    The gate marked the end of the property at the cottage, and also the beginning of a right-of-way for Sophie, Alfie and the Richardsons.

    In fact the land where Sophie parked her car belonged to the Richardsons, the boundary was quite close to her Eastern gable.

    The dispute about the shed was with the auctioneer who sold her the cottage.

    He told her it was part of her property, whereas Alfie had been using this shed as his own and continued to do so.

    Sophie had no right-of-way on the lane beyond her Eastern gable, so the shed was outside her boundary.

    Fence posts strewn around her front lawn indicated work was being done around the boundary,

    I don't know by whom , I don't think it was Leo, I could be wrong.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Thanks, that clears it up. Maps, with boundary details, can be a bit confusing in Ireland. It would have been interesting to hear from the solicitor who carried out the conveyancing. It looks like there has been work done on the lawn at the western side since but at the time she wouldn't have been within her rights to question anyone if they decided to park up at her back door.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    There is still a small space which seems to belong to Sophie's, maybe 30 cm to 1 meter along the Eastern gable. The place where the Ford Fiesta was parked, doesn't seem to belong to Sophie's anymore.

    The shed is to the west of Sophie's. I don't know if it still belonged to her or not, regardless if Alfie was using it or not.

    Sophie could also have parked the car on the other western side of the house. There seems to be a bit of space, driveway, and a gate.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    Who, close to sophie who she would meet 90% of the time in Ireland is now dead 25 years later?

    I'll start off with an obvious one - Alfie

    _

    _

    _

    _

    _



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    Another easy one then, her then husband - dead.

    What about the Alfies' wife, the richardsons, Her friends at 3 castlehead (french), Josephine and Finbarr Hellen, Bruno.

    -

    -

    Like bailey or not he was a journalist, and said to be talented when young in the UK.

    What does he know that we don't? this has been rolling in his head for 25 years, If he cant figure this out how do we stand a chance..

    I am of the belief that the media and gardai of 25 years ago will always be deemed inadequate but todays investigative/media will be deemed no better if the truth ever comes out. The answers are all to be found on the peninsula.

    Go back to motive, opportunity and reason....... Passion & land when it comes to Ireland I'm afraid.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername




    This is Sophie's car still parked after the murder,

    there appears to be a fence ,3 or 4 posts, about 2 or 3 mtrs from her eastern gable.

    The lane up to Alfie's passes close to Sophie's at this point and rises sharply up by the back of her house,

    so sharp in fact it's about 5 or 6 ft higher by the time it reaches her western gable.

    You can just see the posts on the laneway to the left of the western roof ridge.

    This may be the reason she did not run towards Alfie's .

    I'd say it would be a tight squeeze to get the car across the back of her house, and even more awkward to get it back out again.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    For a rural property there has now been a few issues surrounding sophie's property and rights..

    1. The annoyance surrounding closure of a gate or , right of way.
    2. The outhouse that she believed she had bought...
    3. The place that she parked her car is now not part of the holding.
    4. (Ref photo above) new fence posts not yards from the murder scene & disputed gate)

    All was harmonious in sleepy valley .....ya right pull the other one.

    I believe fresh french francs put someones nose out of kilter with this property purchase....

    Who in her close circle of acquaintances could in a shaken state could walk home covered in blood and be assisted thru this carnage..

    And I'll stand corrected but Baily was not the first person to point (without good evidence) the Gardai towards France.

    But but but....never mind all that ...look there's an essentric, blowin type living that may have been introduced to her onceover the hill lets focus out energy over there..



This discussion has been closed.
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