Michael Higgins Praises Travellers Contribution to Irish Society

billyhead · 24-09-2021 8:19pm

The President is supposed to speak on behalf of and represent the people but he's talking utter shite. I can't stand travellers after my elderly harmless defenceless mum was a victim of one of their roofing scams. Absolute scum and whoever did it I hope rots in hell when they eventually kick the bucket.

end of the road · 24-09-2021 8:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934957#Comment_117934957

he is supposed to speak on behalf of, and represent the country, and he does that.

he is not supposed to speak on behalf of, and represent each individual's personal views, nor "the people" and their views, and quite rightly so.

One eyed Jack · 24-09-2021 8:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117934938#Comment_117934938

That’s a quare low bar you have if mention of the media in a single post is sufficient to meet your definition of an obsession! 😳

I’m well aware of the anthropological studies, and what you linked to was an article where the author explained their hypothesis of viewing criminal behaviour through the framework of culture, thereby creating the association between criminality and culture, here, in the very first line of the article that you linked to -

This article explores criminal violence within the framework of cultural experience from a more sophisticated position rather than locating blame for crime in culture.

I didn’t ask you for anything, let alone an association between culture and criminal behaviour, because there isn’t any, and even from the example you gave in your own article it demonstrates my point that anything can be described as a culture, and in this case the author puts inverted commas around the word culture when referring to a culture of masculinity and how they associate that culture they just invented with a criminal subculture, another culture which they also invented to legitimise their own hypothesis -

However, culture is not just about ethnicity. Other ‘cultures’, such as masculinity and a criminal subculture, also shape violent crime through providing people with particular norms to behave according to and particular ways of understanding social interaction (e.g., Staub, 1988; Westen, 1985).

Your attempt to make an association between criminal behaviour and culture is no better than the example you use to support your own belief in an association between criminal behaviour and culture. Never mind social media as I made no mention of it, it’s an issue in the social sciences that writers will invent any old guff and hope it catches on.

Flinty997 · 24-09-2021 9:24pm

Except its not "My" attempt. Its long standing sociology and/or criminology research and studies.

Criminological Theories Investigating the Role of Culture in Crime

During the first half of the 20th century, the concept of culture became central also to another field of study, that of sociology and, in particular, of criminology. The interaction between cultural and criminal practices was at the heart of several criminological theories, which developed between the 1930s and the 1960s, such as the culture conflict theory and subcultural theories. These theories saw crime as a collective behavior, resulting from the adherence to a (sub)cultural group, different from the dominant one.

https://oxfordre.com/criminology/view/10.1093/acrefore/9780190264079.001.0001/acrefore-9780190264079-e-409

You say that anything can be described as a culture, which implies its meaningless. its also interesting you used the term lifestyle as applied to a group, as if it were interchangeable with culture.

Lifestyle mostly focused on personal style while culture refers to collective style. Lifestyle can be expressed in tangible and intangible factors while culture mainly focuses on tangible factors.

But if culture is meaningless as applied to group, (according to you) then by association so is lifestyle. Especially as you used them interchangeably. Then we are back to using stats to measure collective behaviors. So this is repeated occurrence of social behavior and habits. The stats.

24-09-2021 9:46pm

What does denial of reality get anyone apart from certain optics?

Flinty997 · 24-09-2021 9:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935332#Comment_117935332

A free pass apparently.

se25 · 24-09-2021 10:01pm

President Michael Higgins is living in cloud cuckoo land..what contribution ? Yes some travellers have put their heads above the parapet and tried to move on, but are constantly pulled down by their community which never wants to embrace change.. linking benefits to educational attendance & attainment must be the way forward. Halting site nearby was refurbished at great expense and two years on looks like a refugee camp.

One eyed Jack · 24-09-2021 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935228#Comment_117935228

It IS your attempt, which you’re attempting to support with opinions which support your opinions!

I did say anything can be described as a culture, you chose to interpret what I said as implying that culture was meaningless, in spite of the fact that I used the example of “rape culture” to demonstrate that anything can be associated with the idea of culture. That doesn’t mean the term has any legitimacy, and rape culture doesn’t, no matter how many tomes of feminist social studies perspectives anyone may wish to provide as evidence that the term has any legitimacy.

Because I never suggested that culture was meaningless, nor is lifestyle, and I’ll use them interchangeably when they’re being used interchangeably, and still there is no association with criminal behaviour and culture whatsoever, or lifestyle if that helps your understanding. By all means if you want to use stats to make your point, crack on, but don’t expect that they aren’t subject to the same scrutiny as your attempt to associate criminal behaviour with culture.

There’s an awful lot of ideological nonsense you could wedge in under the heading of culture once you make the association with criminal behaviour to suggest silly nonsense like suggesting that because most rapists are men, they should be placed under curfew so that women can navigate the world safely, but my all time favourite is still the cracker from the National Womens Council of Ireland by which they make the point that one in four homeless people are women 😁

It’s similar to @blanch152 feigning concerns about traveller women, just using that as a stick to beat travellers over the head with, when it’s as obvious that you didn’t read your own article, they didn’t read the report they linked to either before they presented it as evidence to support their already held beliefs about travellers and their culture.

end of the road · 24-09-2021 11:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935439#Comment_117935439

linking benefits to educational attendance & attainment isn't workable as it does not and cannot take individual abilities into account, not to mention that if just implemented against travelers it would be discrimination.

Flinty997 · 25-09-2021 1:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935551#Comment_117935551

The problem with the term "rape culture" is that it mostly is used to refer actions of a very small % are applied to a much broader social or cultural grouping. Its often associated with Hyperbole. There's all sorts of danger of both normalizing the crime, but also normalizing hyperbole. Your use of it is a classic example.

You said there was no association. I was just curious was that true outside of Ireland so there is no bias. As it your assertion could be true if the same frequency always appears in wider society, as in sub certain cultures. But mostly doesn't. There are some cultures (again outside of Ireland) where there is a clear relationship, far higher frequency in some sub cultures, and occasionally some sub cultures where the frequency is far less than wider society that it exists in.

If you want to post some studies that say the opposite, again somewhere else in the world. No one stopping you. Hard to find articles and research that isn't behind a paywall.

25-09-2021 6:49am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117933104#Comment_117933104

You are right. It will take work for travellers to integrate into society.

They need to work. Like 40 hours a week like the rest of us until we are 65. Plus pay their way like the rest of us. Anyway how many actually travel now bar live in halting sites paid for by joe taxpayer. When they act and behave like the rest of settled society they will get the integration and loose the plight they so desperately want.

Or is fighting in graveyards their culture as well as driving sulky along the road where there is no tax insurance etc. Some culture

Integration would kill two birds with one stone the rates of violence might go down and the woke generation will find another bleeding heart situation to ram down out throats by labelling people with an other ism.

25-09-2021 6:58am

And just on rights consider the right of some poor person visiting a family grave in Tuam during the week getting caught up in that by accident. That's just one example.

Padraig joyce another terrorised for months living in a barn did nothing to anyone and got jail for defending his home of over 50 years.

But normal taxpayers in this country are privileged so we dont have the same rights as the ethnic groups.

The sooner this left wing liberalism wakes up in this country the better.

ShamNNspace · 25-09-2021 7:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936273#Comment_117936273

Its no wonder we couldn't beat mayo with our manager under so much stress and living in an oul barn

anplaya27 · 25-09-2021 8:37am

B b

whisky_galore · 25-09-2021 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117932300#Comment_117932300

I've yet to hear of Polish/Nigerian/Chinese or whatever immigrants having regular fisticuffs at weddings and funerals.

The kids of immigrants go to school, they complete their education uninterrupted and many go on the third level. They find jobs, pay taxes, open businesses. They engage in local affairs, join sporting organisations etc etc. A proper society is engagement and give and take, not sitting on the sidelines on the take in largely self imposed ghettoisation. I think education is the way of breaking the cycle of a lifestyle that has had its day in the 21st century.

Flinty997 · 25-09-2021 10:31am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936479#Comment_117936479

Perhaps it's cultural in those countries.

25-09-2021 10:39am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936381#Comment_117936381

This is an example of Edge case to the point of off-topic whataboutism.

anplaya27 · 25-09-2021 10:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936711#Comment_117936711

You cut out a piece what I said re education and travellers. I just used another community to prove my point that education is not fully accessible to everyone in this country.

25-09-2021 10:48am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936724#Comment_117936724

It is irrelevant to the discussion. You just have a bee in your bonnet about it and trying to introduce it to a discussion. Without even an example of a deaf member of the travelling community who is being denied education due to a lack of educators with the ability to interact in sign language it isn't even an isolated anecdote.

anplaya27 · 25-09-2021 10:56am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936737#Comment_117936737

Ok

25-09-2021 10:58am

Have you got an anecdote relevant to the discussion or are you going to press ahead with dragging thread off-topic come what may?

jmreire · 25-09-2021 1:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936479#Comment_117936479

Yes Education is the right way, but despite all that is available to them, the majority refuse to participate in it. A family friend is a teacher in a school which caters exclusively for Traveller kids, and each year, its the same story..when they reach 14 or so, bye bye school days, And as for regular attendance, forget it. Especially when it comes to any traveller event. She has done this job for many years now, with generations of Traveller kids, and now finds it very disheartening, after putting all of her energies into the job. I dont blame her at this stage for losing interest.The single biggest prevention to better integration is within the "culture" itself. And yet,each year there are a few ( unfortunately not more) who do manage to break free, and make something of themselves. Very sad story was on TV recently, told by the woman herself as to how at 15 years of age, she ws told that she was being married the next day,,,,did not even get to meet the future husbands until the actual wedding.

One eyed Jack · 25-09-2021 2:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936161#Comment_117936161

The same problem that you have identified with the term “rape culture” exists with what you’re trying to do too - namely your attempt to associate culture with criminal behaviour as though criminal behaviour is a subculture of that culture. It’s exactly the same thing as the author of the article you linked to was trying to do, which I pointed out was utter nonsense - a subculture of criminal behaviour within a ‘culture’ of masculinity. And how did they validate their hypothesis? By interviewing male prisoners of course!

It’s the exact same way you’re trying to claim you’re unbiased, but you’re attempting to create an association between travellers culture and criminal behaviour. No need to go international or say that I have to provide evidence to negate your hypothesis or anything else, I don’t, because in the context of travellers and criminal behaviour, your hypothesis has no legitimacy. I couldn’t care less what is or isn’t behind a paywall, Google was of no help to you in the first place.

In just the same way as you pointed out that the term rape culture tries to frame the issue of rape in the broader context of society as a whole, you’re trying to suggest that criminal behaviour applies in the broader context of society as a whole, and you’re trying to suggest it’s higher among travellers, so it must be part of their culture, without any attempt to measure criminal behaviour among people who aren’t travellers.

It’s a useless framework that has no useful purpose only to point fingers, while at the same time trying to appear as though you aren’t just being dishonest and it’s up to other people who disagree the association has any legitimacy to demonstrate you’re responsible for the association. It’s like you took a dump in the room, drew everyone’s attention to a smell, and you’re now looking at everyone else as though you’re as clueless as they are as to who took a shìt in the room. You’re responsible for it, own it, it’s your mess.

Your behaviour is similar to the sort of behaviour in this example of the oxygen thieves in Pavee Point commissioning a report to say what they want, and then the day before the report is due to be published, Pavee Point withdraws the report as if it doesn’t exist. Senator representing travellers in the Seanad blames the HSE who funded the report for it not being published, because the report is essentially making the point that homelessness among travellers is an issue, and overcrowding among the traveller community is eight times worse than among the general population, so organisations supporting travellers need more funding -

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/report-on-traveller-homelessness-suppressed-says-its-author-1.4654433

Brian Harvey is well respected in his field, and he’s got some serious chops, but his bias is quite obvious, as much as your bias is obvious even though you’re claiming you’re trying to be unbiased in attempting to create an association between culture and criminal behaviour and then trying to distance yourself from it by claiming it’s not you who is making the association, when it very clearly is you who is attempting to make the association.

freshpopcorn · 25-09-2021 3:28pm

I went to school with a traveller lad and he was a nice guy. He wasn't a bully, rarely got into trouble, he got on fine with school and wasn't excluded from games and had friends.. However once secondary hit he just didn't come in really. His siblings were similar enough. Now one of two of them are a bit of bother to honest.

There seems to be an issue with travellers attending secondary education in my experience. I do find some of them do the YouthReach(I think that's what it's called). However I don't know do they go on from here. For example I know of a traveller and they didn't want there kids in secondary school because they were full of drugs and we against their catholic beliefs.

They can of course be improvements to the curriculum and efforts to stamp out bullying for everybody but I do find a there a thing about travellers not wanting to attend education and I don't know how this will change.

One thing that bothers me is when people say the Irish are these narrow minded unaccepting. In the past few years we've seen people vote for the marriage referendum, use business/employ members of the LGBT community.

I can remember in the early 00's when the Eastern Europeans came to Ireland people were very cautious of them and now there fine with them they use there services, are friends with them, etc. However for some reason people seem to be very cautious about travellers because they have had bad experiences on more than one occasion but some people would just label these people as narrow minded people.

Flinty997 · 25-09-2021 4:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937599#Comment_117937599

The odds are not good that everyone, every report, every study, every academic, every researcher every reporter around the entire world is biased except you.

Likewise calling everything fake news, generally has a habit of being fake itself. We've seen that time and time again.

There's a point at which the sheer volume of excuses makes them not credible. It's like saying the dog ate your homework every day of school.

One eyed Jack · 25-09-2021 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938025#Comment_117938025

It’s even more like using the excuse that most of the research is behind a paywall, as you tried to do 🤔

The odds are very good that the research is biased, because it’s objective is to demonstrate the writers hypothesis, not unlike the way you type into Google a few keywords to look for research which supports your opinions and then try to claim you’re only curious, that you’re not biased at all. It’s as though you imagine like the author of the article you linked to, that anyone who pointed out the BS, is unsophisticated.

Same thing you’re doing in claiming I’m wrong, same thing @blanch152 was doing in claiming I don’t know what I’m talking about, when their own evidence which they produced via Google is shown to be ideologically driven nonsense that “identifies” all that’s wrong with travellers from their point of view, and fails to acknowledge and accept that travellers are recognised as a distinct ethnic minority precisely for the reason that their culture is protected in law.

Even the most basic stuff like understanding that travellers are proud to have big families, and the idea of being unable to have a big family is a source of great shame and disappointment for traveller women -

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/rosaleen-mcdonagh-traveller-women-who-don-t-have-children-are-pitied-1.4526284?mode=amp

I don’t agree with her politics, but I do understand what she’s talking about. @blanch152 talking about traveller women being denied reproductive rights? That’s their perspective, it’s not a perspective which is shared among travellers as an idea which IS part of their culture. In a similar fashion, the number of travellers who engage in criminal behaviour are a minority of travellers as a whole group, yet you’re trying to suggest that criminal behaviour is part of traveller culture, when it isn’t any more part of traveller culture than criminal behaviour is a legitimate culture among the general population. That’s why your “criminal subculture” nonsense is just that, you don’t even believe in the concept yourself because you were able to point out the issues with it in relation to what is called “rape culture”.

end of the road · 25-09-2021 6:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936272#Comment_117936272

the first problem for you is that "the rest of us" don't all work 40 hours, but work less or more depending on the job being worked by the individual.

the second problem for you is that not everyone will work until 65 for various reasons and some may work longer, and in fact most of us don't fully pay for ourselves given we don't fund our full costs such as education, use of roads etc, only a small few actually do truely pay for themselves in full.

your last sentence is victim blaming and justifying discriminatory behaviour, it is not up to those discriminated against to do anything to stop the discriminatory behaviour that is engaged against them, it is on those doing the discriminating to stop such behaviour as they don't have any justification for it, but engage in it because it gives them some sort of superiority complex and allows them to engage in a victim complex.

and ultimately no, even if travelers were to change absolutely every single thing about them, there is absolutely no doubt that people like yourself would not allow them to get the integration and lose the plight they want, because it means you having to change your ways and you will have nobody else to use as an excuse for your victim complex, not to mention your rant about mythical bleeding hearts and wokeness etc will be even more irrelevant then it is now, which is 100%.

by the way fighting in grave yards and sulky racing on the roads are both criminal offences, so therefore cannot be culture currently.

end of the road · 25-09-2021 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936273#Comment_117936273

first of all padraig nally didn't get jail for defending his home, you can look it up as to what he was actually jailed for, its very much in the public domain.

secondly you have the same rights as anyone else in the country, you also have the same entitlements to extra state services and help if you qualify.

as i said, victim complex.

the good news is that centerism is going nowhere, your type of political views are just not supported in any meaningful way in this country and never will be as they don't deliver but hinder and destroy a country and it's people.

Galwayguy35 · 25-09-2021 7:30pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938562#Comment_117938562

What on earth are you on about now?

The vast majority of people in full time employment work an average of between 35 to 40 hours a week not including OT.

Middle income earners and above pay for everything and are basically entitled to nothing, if our house needs repair it comes out of our own pocket and so its a bit galling when we see some travellers wrecking the accommodation they get for free through our taxes and then the council comes along fixes it up and the cycle repeats itself over and over.

And thats not even touching on the way they throw rubbish around the place and of course the council clears that up as well for them or putting road users in danger by racing horses on dual carraigeways.

Its high time they got their act together and started behaving like responsible citizens.

Flinty997 · 25-09-2021 9:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938139#Comment_117938139

Except I didn't use an excuse of stuff is behind a paywall. I linked to stuff thats not behind a paywall.

Also the research doesn't only show the presence of something in certain cultures, sub culture. But the absence of things in certain cultures. There are unexpected results in it.

It seems if someone will only consider their own opinion qualified with no evidence. That is dogma. Nothing more bias than dogma.

Michael Higgins Praises Travellers Contribution to Irish Society

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Criminological Theories Investigating the Role of Culture in Crime