Murder at the Cottage | Sky

chicorytip · 25-09-2021 5:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117937085#Comment_117937085

She fled down the lawn in front of the house?? There is hedging running the length of the driveway - the left hand side as you drive up. There is today, that is, and it was there in 1996. I am open to correction about that. Yet her body was discovered on the right hand side of the driveway (looking upward) just inside the gate. So did she scramble through the hedging in attempting to escape. This would have slowed her progress considerably. She may have had a better chance had she continued straight to the end of the lawn or however you would describe it rather than divert to the left as it would seem in this scenario. I think it obvious that she ran down and was chased down the driveway.

25-09-2021 5:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938331#Comment_117938331

She fled down the lawn in front of the house??

There was blood found there

crackcrack30 · 25-09-2021 7:02pm

Could that blood have been from the killer going back up ? At what point was the door smeared.

Very little can be taken as true evidence I'm afraid...😔

tinytobe · 25-09-2021 7:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938725#Comment_117938725

I think that's Sophie's blood as far as it was reported, it was at least. I also don't think she was already injured when she left the house. Thus I can only speculate that the killer hat Sophie's blood on himself and accidentally left a stain on the door. The intention of returning to the house is to look for whatever he wanted to look for, possibly something incriminating?

25-09-2021 7:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938725#Comment_117938725

Can I just ask as a matter of interest, have you watched the Jim Sheridan doc, the Netflix doc, and listened to the West Cork podcast series? Because a lot of the known information is contained there.

tinytobe · 25-09-2021 7:19pm

I've actually seen both documentaries, however not certain, if I missed anything or memorized everything.

It's just odd, if there is Sophie's blood on the door as well as Sophie's blood on the gate and she is lying in between. She could hardly have made it back to the house if she was really killed near the gates. Unless Sophie's murderer had blood on himself and went back to the house? Or she was already hit at the entrance of her house and then ran to the gates, where she was killed?

25-09-2021 7:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938821#Comment_117938821

Jim Sheridan speculates that Sophie's blood on the door was put there by the murderer returning to the house. Perhaps to retrieve the missing diaries? Others on the thread speculated that Alfie, who by his own statement went and knocked on Sophie's door after Shirley found the body, (maybe not that door), may have left the trace.

Another point of interest about the blood are the circular drops found on Sophie's clothes and mentioned as significant in the autopsy.

I miss Moonunit. Whatever his angle was, he always had the links to everything.

25-09-2021 7:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938725#Comment_117938725

I don't believe the killer went back up and they surely would have said if it was strange blood DNA. Wasn't it the back door that was smeared and that was her blood. I think if the killer had Sophie's blood and touched the door there would be forensic of him mixed in the sample

25-09-2021 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938821#Comment_117938821

Or she was already hit at the entrance of her house and then ran to the gates, where she was killed

That's what I think. There is no rule here about not asking stuff covered in the documentaries. No one can remember everything. We are all going in circles really, why wouldn't we when the people with all the files cannot figure it out

tinytobe · 25-09-2021 8:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938958#Comment_117938958

I would largely suspect that the killer went back to the house and had a look around, if there was anything incriminating, anything written down. Whether that was a diary or just a notebook, doesn't really matter, but it would have been something which would incriminate him. As the house was not lived in for a majority of the year, it would suggest that Sophie kept little of real value or personal value there, thus anything possibly incriminating would have been something small and something Sophie brought with her or had with her during her travels. And yes, as one of the users pointed out, the room looked "a bit staged" to me as well, but then we don't know Sophie well enough if it was or not. Her husband might have been able to shine some light on that one, however he decided not to go to Ireland on that occasion.

If the police were thorough ( which they obviously were not ) they would have gone through the calls Sophie received on her phone ? Incoming and outgoing? That is if she had a landline. The killer might have called ahead, or she might even have called him? However night clothes would suggest that it was unplanned for Sophie.

The pathologist also suggested that Sophie had eaten something more breakfast like, which would also lead to the time of death. The murder could easily have happened at 7 am or even later? Considering that it's dark for a long time in Ireland at this time of the year, the murderer would have operated under the guise of darkness in the morning as well.

25-09-2021 8:16pm

What we need at this point is some sleuth to look into Alfie with his American connections.

Were the guards protecting him?

and even if it’s nothing so exotic, there’s more than enough stuff with land dispute and drug growing to be of interest.

As mentioned in the last few pages, shirleys behaviour on the day the body was discovered was quite odd.

25-09-2021 8:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939073#Comment_117939073

Whether that was a diary or just a notebook, doesn't really matter, but it would have been something which would incriminate him.

3 missing diaries was brought up for the very first time in this thread, just a few pages back.

The 'going round in circles' comments isn't a disrespect to new posters, it's just calling out people who aren't bothered to do a bit of research. No ones is asking anyone to read the autopsy or the DPP report or the Brandon tape recording transcripts, or even this entire thread. But the entertainment broadcasts from Sky and Netflix and the excellent West Cork podcasts are there for anyone who has a genuine interest in the case.

25-09-2021 8:31pm

Also, I know this is pretty out there. But I can’t help but wonder if this was a mercy killing of some kind?

That Sophie may have been attacked and left for dead, and whoever came across her couldn’t leave her in that state?

I know this is really far out and also really horrible to contemplate.

The fact that a block in the dark was chosen as the weapon trips me up every time.

it points very far away from a crime of passion. Yes people can be brutally killed in crimes of passion but for the murder then to go scouting around for something with which to finish her off?

It makes no sense.

amid all the speculation on here, I think we can all agree on one fact: somebody wanted her dead. Dead dead. Not just grievously, possibly critically, injured.

it could go back to the hitman theory.

A mercy killing, a hitman, punishment for meddling in drug affairs or because someone wanted her land...

no matter how ludicrous they sound, I think the manner of her murder points to one of them rather than a crime of passion. Crimes of passion don’t tend to end with the murderer coldly scouting around for the weapon that will end their victim.

Yes, the more I think about it, I think that is the one conclusion these 200+ pages have led me to. Someone wanted Sophie dead and to make sure she was dead.

Crimes of passion are an act of revenge and retribution and punishment and often they end in murder but usually it is, as Bailey was accused of, the person ‘going too far.’

Dropping the block on her face is not ‘going too far’, that’s standing up and looking around and carefully selecting an item for the final blow.

Unless, of course, it was a crime of passion that escalated and the murderer had to really make sure she couldn’t identify them. Which would fit with the jilted detective theory. Not so much Bailey.

Lets take into account as well the fact she was chased. Chased and attacked and then murdered in cold blood. I don’t think crimes of passion tend to involve pursuit. They’re more intimate, immediate, for lack of a better word.

And the fact that no sign of sexual assault was found would indicate that her death was the point, and was from the beginning.

So yeah. I know I started this post with speculation about a mercy killing which I’m sure can’t be true. But in the course of my stream of consciousness I feel sort of satisfied that this wasn’t a crime of passion.

odyssey06 · 25-09-2021 8:40pm

Re: the block

When a killer does this it can be as an attempt to obliterate the person, destroy what makes them human. Deprive her of that even in death... "not so pretty now". Depersonalize the victim.

So it could be a vindictive 'passionate' action.

But then people who carry out murders like that its usually not a once off.

Or it could be what someone does to make it look like a rage attack fuelled by hatred.

chooseusername · 25-09-2021 8:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117938331#Comment_117938331

There's a gate from the bottom of Sophie's lawn out onto the lane.

As far as I know there was no sign of a struggle at this gate, so maybe it was open ?

secondary gategap.jpg

25-09-2021 8:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939156#Comment_117939156

Or completely lost control of the situation once she started running and had to make do with what was to hand?

I wish we had a better word than hitman. Hitman implies professionalism etc. This could just be a situation that got badly out of hand.

I do think the speculation as to whether a hitman would have ‘made noise’ to draw Sophie’s attention to make her come outside is a bit far fetched. It could be that something her husband said aroused her fear. If she saw or heard someone approaching the house, she could have put on her boots and tried to slip out unnoticed and hidden in the darkness of the countryside. Resulting in a pursuit and an extremely botched hit.

Speaking as a woman who has lived in a similarly remote area in Ireland. I’ve planned my escape from intruders mentally many times, my imagination goes wild. Not one of those scenarios has ever involved me remaining in the house or calling the guards or anything like that. It’s always about my quickest and most discreet route out of the house, and not necessarily down to the neighbours half a mile away. It’s about knowing how the countryside can conceal me.

That’s why I wonder whether Sophie followed a similar train of thought. Its not out of the realms of possibility, because the scenario is something I’ve lived myself many times, even if it’s just in my head.

The hitman could have simply intended to break in and strangle her in her bed. She had gotten wind from Daniel that her life might be in danger and chose to slip out the front door maybe?

tinytobe · 25-09-2021 8:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939130#Comment_117939130

Open questions are not phantasies they are just questions. There are so many open and unanswered questions, to which we will never really have the answer.

One thing is certain: Sophie's death is meant to cover something up, to stop something from happening, her from talking, or maybe her husband getting an insurance payout upon her death? How much did the insurance really pay Sophie's husband? ( not much media coverage on that one.... ) How was Daniel Toscan du Plantier's financial situation really like? Would it have been enough for murder? I don't think he would have had her killed her over 20K but 500 K to 1 Million would probably have been a good motive, plus no costly divorce.

Regarding motive I would totally rule out any kind of classical property dispute. Upon Sophie's death nothing changed in the neighbourhood, no new developments, no new planning permissions, no major ownership changes, etc..that Sophie could have objected to. Shirley only sold her house only recently, - kept it for more than 20 years after the murder.

I often thought if Alfie was running drugs from America or any other part of the Americas to Ireland. Organizing things pulling strings, not doing it himself, and some of the local Gards in on it? Alfie could also not have done it without paying off one or two of the Gards to keep them off his back? I'd say. I think if it was drugs related, either Alfie or maybe even her housekeeper who had the keys should have been investigated more closely.

Alfie and Shirley lived there all year round, as far as I know. Which means, even if they were both not directly involved in drugs, Alfie and Shirley knew what was going on in the neighbourhood, how isolated it may be in the area, but they must have known. Especially if drug trafficking was going on.

And then there is the housekeeper. If she had keys to the house and was there every now and then she would have noticed immediately if somebody in Sophie's absence may have been in the house as well, maybe, as it was alleged using the bathroom? She would have notified Sophie if she wasn't in it as well, which we don't know.

Certainly the lock of door could have been picked with ease during Sophie's absence.

25-09-2021 10:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939130#Comment_117939130

Reading A Dream of Death I wondered if it could have been an enemy of Daniel or even Sophie's family who killed Sophie. They seemed to have way too much power. The close connection to Chirac and government etc and all the government backing when they formed The Association for The Truth about the Murder of STDP

I didn't know they were able to get a special magistrate to help their fight with investigating and arresting Bailey. Thye were give ccess to the Garda file and co operation all along the line. Superintendents meeting her parents when they arrived in Cork. The parents upset because of their pain at no conviction.It didn't seem to matter to them if Bailey was innocent so long as they could get one of their 'courts' to convict him. And the European arrest warrant was said at the Supreme Court to only apply if France had decided to charge him. How did it pass the High court here, would they have known EAW is for charge only?

France would or should have known that you do not get an EAW for questioning but still sought one. And they seem to have got top level support in this country They have far too much influence from this spineless govt in ireland. Making all these special arrangements for them is corrupt in itself

I wonder if French citizens who did not have Chirac's ear have that power. I'm sure people who abuse others rights like that would have plenty enemies. They come across to me as extremely selfish. Her son too seems to think the Irish are there to tell him what he wants to hear. They act like they are the only people to have a tragic death. Many have who do not have that political power to order countries to get the result they want. They should not have that authority here anyway and it makes France seem very corrupt. Their system of justice does not seem very just.

Is this too far out?

25-09-2021 10:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939551#Comment_117939551

I didn’t know all that about the special favours granted to Sophie’s family, it’s not far out at all.

It really puts the idea of something having come from the French side into perspective.

if it was an enemy of Daniel’s etc, might they have been afforded protection from the French as well? Because the whole entanglement was just too murky to be exposed?

25-09-2021 10:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939616#Comment_117939616

I didn’t know all that about the special favours granted to Sophie’s family, it’s not far out at all.

i have only skipped over them .it is disgraceful they have all that influence here.

25-09-2021 10:38pm

I suppose if Daniels fourth wife Melita, whose mother murdered her father, was in any way responsible for the crime there would be a ‘both sides’ aspect to the protection afforded by the French.

both to Sophie’s family/Daniel

and Daniel/Melita

25-09-2021 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939642#Comment_117939642

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trevor_O%27Keeffe

In fairness there is another side. I read her book. i don't remember but i don't think she insisted on who the killer was [EDIT SHE DID]. They want Bailey jailed because someone told them he did it. Was it the cops who told them we know but can't prove?

25-09-2021 10:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939698#Comment_117939698

What’s the connection?

Edit oh sorry I didn’t read the comment properly

25-09-2021 10:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939723#Comment_117939723

I am just point out that even though i say they should not have influence here an irish woman did the same thing in reverse.

tinytobe · 26-09-2021 12:11am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117939551#Comment_117939551

Yes it is a bit far out, but why not? I've had a similar thought regarding an enemy of Daniel or Sophie, but into a different direction:

Daniel was a film producer, Sophie a TV producer, right? What if somebody disagreed with the content they produced? Somebody who may have had political objections or religious ones?

I once researched on Wikipedia Daniel Toscan du Plantier's films but didn't find anything that would fit such a profile of motive.

However it's a faint possibility which should have been considered or investigated back then.

I honestly have no idea about the Toscan du Plantier family their influence in France and their connection to the Chirac government.

saabsaab · 26-09-2021 1:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117931717#Comment_117931717

Well, it could be a method of killing that might leave a mark or a pointer to the killer. An ice pick or knitting needle through an eye, a bullet wound ( would anyone expect an examiner to look for evidence of a bullet wound in a smashed to pieces head pulp?).

drumm23 · 26-09-2021 2:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117936490#Comment_117936490

I would in my arse.

Id be tucked under my blankets terrified…

And I’m 6’3” 😂

tinytobe · 26-09-2021 8:26am

One question which still lingers is how would the killer have been certain that Sophie would actually open the door when he would knock?

Also Sophie could have been asleep and overheard the knocking at the door. The killer would have had that risk. The killer most likely also knew that Sophie was to depart for France on the next day and his time to commit the murder was limited.

This idea would lead me to believe that the encounter between Sophie and the killer must have been arranged in some way shape or form, possibly a phone call.

And then there is the question of how Sophie was dressed. If Sophie knew somebody was coming she would hardly have met him in her night dress?

Thus I can only deduce that to the killer the encounter was planned, to Sophie the encounter was unexpected.

dmc17 · 26-09-2021 8:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117940429#Comment_117940429

Or else it was early morning and she was up and and about having put on the boots for doing a few bits around/outside the house

Polly701 · 26-09-2021 9:00am

The husband...

Was married with a child quickly afterwards.. He also did not let Sophie's son stay with him - he 'threw him out'.

The husband said afterwards (in early 1997) that she was pregnant when she was not. Perhaps she has mislead him or she was mistaken?

The husband was the last person to speak to her. And yet he did not travel to Ireland when she was murdered. This seems like such a red flag. Did he come for any of the memorial services?

Presumably the husband benefitted financially by her death.. Was there life insurance? And now no divorce costs (they'd both had affairs).

Am I right in saying he wasn't even interviewed 'properly' at the time as the Guards who travelled to France were prevented from doing so? And yet the French authorities enabled that ridiculous charade that found Bailey guilty..

Dwyer insisted that it must be a local because it was such a hard place to find.. But it really isn't. Leave Schull.. Turn right at Kealfadda and the next left... Follow that lane.

He's a far more credible suspect than Bailey.

Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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