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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Could this suggest that she was perhaps expecting somebody to visit her...

    Aliens??



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Certainly not. The question is ultimately, did she always park there when she was at the house sort of out of habit, or was this only once, like on the night of the murder or when she expected visitors?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    here we are 25 years later and at the highest level of state, people in Ireland and France are pointing fingers at each other saying.....nothing! It takes a lot of learning to know how to say nothing convincingly, only the very best law students become are chosen as diplomats.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Good point. Do you have any information as to how she normally parked, reverse in or drive in?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Daniel Du Plantier would not strike me as a sinister individual capable of orchestrating a murder. He was a film producer, not some gangster. Nothing has ever come to light to suggest he had a hand in Sophie's death. The "drug" angle? Again, is incredible. Major shipments of Cocaine, destined for the English market, would have been landed along that stretch of coastline but mostly under the radar of even the Gardai and navy and certainly without the assistance of locals. She crossed some local hippie pot dealer/cultivator who may have been her neighbour Alfie Lyons? I suppose you could say this is not as preposterous a theory as some put forward but that is about it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭kerry_man15


    Interesting points...who had organised the new fencing and why? Most likely it was Alfie given the location. Were they arguing over the boundary? It's clear from overhead shots that some fencing was being done. Was that line of enquiry followed? It's quite possible an argument escalated and the killer hit Sophie, then panicked and in the spur of the moment decided she needed to be finished off otherwise he was in big trouble for a horrific assault...and maybe other things would be uncovered when he was investigated?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I know what you are saying and I honestly don't have the impression either that he could have orchestrated the murder of his wife at least not himself alone. One thing Daniel would have to have done is getting the "underworld contacts" to hire the hitman. I doubt very much that Daniel Toscan du Plantier had any of these contacts, - for that he just doesn't appear to be the type. Maybe a shady friend of his who "consulted him" and organized the whole murder? Some "one in all" solution......

    However it's beyond doubt that Daniel Toscan du Plantier would have benefited financially the most of all with his Sophie's death. Husband killing or having wife killed for a financial motive such as a life insurance payout and not having to part with half of his estate whilst avoiding the cost of a divorce all together is one of the "classic murder cases". If the local drug operation was something smaller he had certainly the biggest financial motive. And since both partners had apparently an "open marriage" than sex or cheating wasn't the motive as both partners apparently knew and agreed to these philanderings.

    The rest we just don't know. No real evidence, lot's of unanswered questions, lot's of years gone by, some died of natural causes and now only speculations.



  • Registered Users Posts: 9,624 ✭✭✭wmpdd3



    Tosca Toscan De Plantier, Daniel's child with the 4th wife was born in March 1998, so conceived around the 10th of June, 6 months after Sophie's death. So no, 4th wife was not pregnant when Sophie was killed, but their relationship was being reported in French Media well before the pregnancy.


    All was not well between Daniel and Sophie's family, but it seems her family thought she wanted a daughter, possibly with Daniel.

    "By 1999, Daniel was remarried and not on good terms with Sophie's family. Her aunt Marie Madeleine Opalka told the Irish Times that they didn't approve of his criticism of the police handling the investigation, especially when he hadn't even gone to Ireland in the wake of his wife's murder ("We, the family of Sophie who truly loved her, are grateful to the Irish police")—or that he and his fourth wife had named their new baby girl Tosca, the name Sophie had wanted to give to the daughter she still hoped to have."

    Bailey is now a homeless washed up alcoholic, with ailing health, I can't see him lasting more than a few years. If he doesn't secure accommodation in the next few weeks he has no hope of staying in the Schull area. He craves an audience and limelight, if he really can't live without the lime light and he did it, all he has to do is admit it, he will go down in history for fooling us all for 25 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭drumm23


    What a diatribe. “Fanboys” I mean, really, have a word with yourself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,926 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    Any professional would be well aware of blood spatter forensics from such a violent manner of attack.

    If it was designed to look like a crime of passion, then stabbing slowly or strangulation would suffice?

    Further, strangulation would likely prevent the ability for the victim to scream.

    Based on that, I can't buy hitman theory.

    Further, I think that anyone who would disfigure a defenceless human being to such an extent, could likely have a past history of such actions on animal or other in their past.

    Somewhere mentioned of local suicides in years following and supposed admission of "i have done something terrible".

    I wonder have their past foreign lives been investigated to find out if there were latent histories, even in childhood?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    It was the US DEA that detailed the transshipment of cargo from ocean-going boats to local fishing boats as a major link in a chain at that time, so it's not inconceivable that payment in kind could sometimes be used. After that we can only guess. Michaella McCollum comes to mind.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Agnes Thomas was Sophie's best friend who told a court in 2019 how she remembered Sophie talking about meeting a 'weird' guy, a poet but she was uneasy. Unfortunately Agnes' power of recollection is worse than Alfie Lyons' was even though she'd spoken twice to Sophie during her last days.

    "It was pointed out to her that when French magistrates began investigating the murder in 2008, she had not related anything about this conversation.

    “The brain is a complex thing,” Ms Thomas said. “I lost my best friend, it was so shocking. Something blocked in me and it took years before it came back to me when I saw the footage that mentioned something about poetry.”



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Here is the only image I can find of the rear of the house, albeit 20 yrs later.

    It would be a tight squeeze , but do-able and would mean having to reverse back out.




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I'll put up a few images, and you can draw your own conclusions.

    The first 2 are in the aftermath of the murder.

    The first one shows fence posts strewn around the lawn, indicating work being done around the boundaries either by Sophie or her neighbours;


    The 2nd one shows an unfinished fence along Sophie's eastern gable, ie. 4 posts bit no wire yet.

    Did a workman turn up to complete this fencing early Mon. morning only to be confronted by an irate Sophie fearing her car parking space was about to be fenced off?

    Was this the reason for her impromptu visit? maybe a call from her neighbour or housekeeper to tell her of the work going on?


    The 3rd one is sometime later, and no sign of any fence?




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    This is it. She flew over to meet someone. Its amazing we don't know who for certain. The three big suitcases is interesting too hadn't heard that one before.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The thing is, these are only all indications and our own deductions and not proof of anything.

    One would have to have known her habits und ways of doing things.

    Yes, the driveway on her land to the west of the house seems small, but it would fit 2 cars for parking easily. It's just more complicated backing out from there and then reversing the car, I would say.

    Where the Fiesta was parked during the night of the murder it would fit 3 cars easily. It's also probably only convenience that she parked there, rather than anything else

    However we're inclined to think that "there must have been a reason for parking there", or was she possibly expecting a guest or a visitor who's car could have been parked more hidden on her own property?

    We all don't know.

    Same as the 3 suitcases? Was she used to bringing 3 suitcases for such a short trip? It's not an impossible thought for somebody in the show business, I'd say? Or is this an indication of wanting to stay longer? Or just bringing personal stuff over for a longer stay later on in the next year?

    Would she always park where the Fiesta was on the pictures or was this only a one time thing?

    Nobody could answer these questions anymore. Possibly Shirley, as she's the only neighbour still alive, but moved away, and could easily answer with "I don't remember anymore" after 25 years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭drumm23


    Exactly.

    The idea that Bailey phoned Sophie's "office" is such a massive stretch - but it's people who doubt his guilt that are conspiratorial?

    Where did he get her office number? Did he write the number down - or even her place of work? Did he talk to her there, if not, why not and who did he talk to and how did they know who he was and did anybody take any record of this call? What precipitated the call? Had Sophie and Ian met in Cork and she told him where she worked - but he then told nobody about this meeting and never mentioned it in his diary/writing? Why did she not mention her worries about him to anybody actually in Cork (like the Ungerers for example) - only to French people in France? Convenient.

    Fanboy much.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I'd say that it's entirely possible that Bailey knew that Sophie owned a house there, and Bailey knew what the Toscan du Plantier family was all about how known they were in France, and what kind of line of business they were in.

    I would also be inclined to speculate that if Bailey had any contact with Sophie or Sophie's office in Paris, the nature of the call wasn't personal or potentially at some point sexual in nature, but quite possible regarding the commissioning of journalistic or some other artistic work.

    Sophie wouldn't have made contact with Bailey, she would not have needed him, but Bailey would have made contact with her, in order to get some free-lance job and a commission in a financial spectrum Bailey could only dream about. Maybe Bailey persuaded Sophie into a meeting when she'd be in Ireland but Sophie then rejected him in regards to any possible fre-lance work?

    Yes, it's very far stretched, very speculative, but not beyond imagination.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    @chooseusername I believe that the land was being farmed/used by the housekeepers husband finbarr...

    Fosters book refers to this. I know very little about this man..or if he is now dead or alive.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    f it was designed to look like a crime of passion, then stabbing slowly or strangulation would suffice?

    the pathologist would know of strangulation anyway and probably of stabbing



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Same as the 3 suitcases? Was she used to bringing 3 suitcases for such a short trip?

    Has anyone seen if the garda checked the contents of the suitcases? I assume they would have



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Maybe he rang her up from a phone box and said hello my name is Fiona, I was thinking about making a futuristic comedy about myself and I will not find it very funny.

    Even if IB had known Sophie what difference would that make? He would have been incredibly foolish denying he had been introduced to her when he knew that Alfie could have said "no I remember it well he told her he was a poet" and Leo would recall saying "oh la la you're the charmer Bailey". But of course he didn't know her, as the DPP's file says;

    "The Garda contention that Bailey is being untruthful and evasive regarding his knowledge of Sophie Toscan du Plantier is not supported by convincing evidence."



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Another interesting unanswered question.

    Also, would the killer have gone through Sophie's suitcases in order to eliminate something incriminating?

    It's not likely that Sophie kept the often mentioned 3 diaries gone missing in the suitcases, but it can't be ruled out as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I don't know where the story of the "3 large suitcases" originated .

    The stills from the airport shows a trolley with one large suitcase and a couple of hand and carrier type bags..



  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭drumm23


    Imagination is fine and good - but there is nothing to support this notion and the previous diatribe about "fanboys" begins with this very fabrication.

    If Bailey actually knew Sophie then he was taking a massive gamble in denying he knew her because she might have written about knowing him, she might have told any number of people about him, he might have said it to somebody, he might have been seen with her ... but instead there is nothing to substantiate the idea that he knew her. Does this mean he's innocent - of course not. But assuming he did not know her is very far from conspiratorial and certainly not fanboyish - and it changes the narrative in a very important way.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Course he would have told someone!!!! And probably have written about her in his diaries.

    You are right, there's absolutely nothing. Just a lame statement from her neighbour who was stoned most of the time and a miraculous remembering from Leo bolger around the time he got a suspended sentence for running the most sophisticated drug operation gardai had seen in the area.

    Are people really that stupid, or I'm the case of the French, desperate?



  • Registered Users Posts: 279 ✭✭MrMischief


    Great post and certainly adds some balance to the thread - but yet I still sit on the fence in the hope that hard facts come to light and the family get justice!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,926 ✭✭✭Andrea B.


    I know, i was saying that, if it was a planned hit, they would be a forensically safer method.

    Hence my discounting hitman theories.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,418 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    What was forensically risky \ unsafe about the method?

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    In the interest of keeping an open mind to all theories, I'll just leave this here. The sound quality is a bit poor at the beginning but improves later.

    Doesn't really explain the block but sure you can't have everything.

    Actually reading some of the more recent comments, it says the block was found some meters from the body. Is that correct does anyone know?

    I had the idea that the block was found on her head but maybe that comes from reading too much casual misinformation on this thread.




This discussion has been closed.
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