Deathloop

Nobody's "worried" about that trash channel. A lot of their peers are seeing them in a new light since the ignorant bastardising of Dinga's name. They are completely inauthentic and cringe-worthy. The only YouTuber with less integrity would be YongYea.  Anyway, Deathloop will likely win GOTY despite its (predictable) haters. It has been very successful and I'm glad it's getting love from the outlets that actually matter. One of the things that has been consistently praised about it is the way it undoes bad player habits by forcing you to try different approaches via having the opportunity to revisit levels over and over. Whereas Prey and Dishonoured had a tendency to guilt you into playing a certain way through its karma system/ship behaviour even if technically you could play it how you wanted.

What you class it as is irrelevant lol. It's an AAA game. Sorry. I wouldn't say it's catering to a larger audience either, evident by the undercurrent of negativity before the game was even released. The risks that Bethesda allowed Arkane to take is crazy.  I actually can't believe it got funded tbh.

Really great video from Sony Santa Monica dev Alanah Pearce on the enemy A.I. She was the first person to note the "bad" A.I. in the Deathloop previews before it became an easy, trendy way for people who don't understand game design to look smart:

Somebody in the comments argued that just because it's intentional doesn't mean it's the right choice to which she responded that it being the right choice would depend on personal preference, which is true. I predicted in my first impressions that people will want difficulty settings because of the enemy A.I. and I was right, but I hope Arkane stick to their guns and stay true to their vision. On that note, I love Alanah's work in general. I find her videos so informative and, while I don't always agree with her, she always at least gives a well researched and balanced take. 

The purpose of her video was not to prove how knowledgeable she is in her field to the pedantic though. It was to provide a simple breakdown for the uninformed as to why saying the A.I. is "bad" in this case is reductive. It's a totally fair and valid take to not like the decision Arkane has made and to wish it was more punishing, but to act as if the A.I. behaviour is this way by accident  - especially when Arkane has proven they can do punishing A.I. in their previous games - is an instant giveaway that the person isn't as knowledgeable on game design as they're making out. I'm still learning a lot about the science of game design to this day as I was never interested as a consumer. So I find Alanah's video really helpful. She's not patronising or trying to show off; she really does want to help people understand which is refreshingly generous.

Alanah's video is not about the lore or the characterisation of the eternalists at all and I don't recall Arkane ever using that to explain away the A.I. behaviour...

1. Well, funny you mention that, because in the article you linked - that I trust you have actually read - James Troughton details how the enemy A.I. in Updaam at night is significantly more difficult due to it being, in theory, the end of the loop. You reach Updaam at night very, very early in the game which begs the question: how much of the game have you played to form such a strong opinion on the enemy A.I.? Because in the previous post you said you've played a "little bit of it" but now you're saying  a "good bit"  🤔 However, again, the player experiences Updaam at night very early in the game that you say you have played which has a noticeable difference in A.I behaviour as detailed in the article you linked...
2. But in the previous post you said it was obvious, again, quote, "obvious", end quote, that Arkane is using lore/story as an excuse for bad A.I. coding but now you're saying that maybe it's from Arkane. 🤔 And yet I have asked you twice now if you could kindly link me to unfiltered evidence that Arkane Studios, i.e. the studio you said that it is "obvious" is using lore/eternalist behviour as an excuse for bad A.I. coding but, alas, you have not been able to do so... 🤔

With Updaam at night I was thinking more of the first time you go there (the A.I. placements and amount of enemies at night is different to the other time periods). I'm just trying to imagine how heightened aggression and awareness of A.I. would be as a new player. btw dunno if you know this but you can actually enter Frank's place with all your slabs if you get to the rooftop and hack the door. Only the front door on ground level detects when you have a classpass or not. There was no way I was even gonna try without my slabs once I saw the amount of enemies so I scouted the area for secret entrances and voila. ☺️

100%

Interesting. So you've played 2 hours, i.e. the tutorial section, approximately 2 hours after I last asked you how much of the game you have played. 🤔 What was your experience? What happened, story wise, in those 2 hours? Can you give your overall impressions of the game so far?

Alanah's video which, by the by, was what the original discussion was about, is in response to people - a lot of whom are reviewers - just saying the A.I. is "bad/dumb", full stop. Her video is not in response to those saying the "A.I. is bad for lore reasons". You brought that up and credited Arkane as saying as such and even went as far as to say Arkane think their players are dumb for that. However, you have so far not been able to produce evidence of anyone from Arkane studios actually saying this and when asked to produce such evidence you posted a link of other people's interpretation of the A.I.  Now you are saying Arkane never said this but it's "likely" from the 2 hours you have, allegedly, played and what other people on social media have said... 🤔

I am sure you clicked on the link inside of the first article you posted where you would have been taken to a quote from Arkane where they do discuss a little bit of the process in regards to combat, more specifically why there isn't the ability to parry. The reason? Due to latency issues for online - they found the host player had an advantage in this area and so scrapped it. So again, what little they have said about combat/A.I. has nothing to do with the lore. Additionally, by speaking about the latency issues in the online Arkane has demonstrated that they are, in fact, more than willing to be candid when it comes to technical issues they have endured during the PR cycle. 🤔

Lastly, on the subject of "not taking everything Alanah says as gospel", there is more evidence to suggest that she is right when she says that Arkane deliberately dialed down the A.I. to not detract from the player's experience of pursuing leads, seeing as in the noclip documentary Arkane spoke about ciritcisms they received for the so-called handholdy nature of the puzzles. The reason for this decision? They were worried about "cognitive load" . This can be viewed at the 7:59 mark. Again, showing Arkane stand by decisions they have made and are not using lore reasons as an excuse for alleged faults in game design. 🤔

OK. So again:

1. What part of the game did you play?

2. What happened in the story?

3. What discoveries did you make?

4. What were your overall impressions? 

You can spoiler tag it if you like for those reading who potentially haven't played Deathloop. Additionally, I'm sure your friend would have told you that the A.I. has adaptive difficulty and that the more visionaries you kill in a single completed loop the more aggressive it gets with each loop. It's called "loop stress". Likewise, when Julianna invades, the A.I. becomes more aggressive and starts actively hunting for you. 🤔

Indeed, a deliberate choice doesn't necessarily mean it's the right choice but then at that point we're talking about preference. Alanah's video is not about preference or whether Arkane got the balance right. It's her simply explaining that the A.I. behaviour is not by accident as many people believe it to be.

Indeed, interpretation of art isn't just based on what the people that created that art have said. However, what we are actually discussing is you claiming that the person who created the art lied about their intent for said art, but when asked to provide evidence of such a lie you could not find it. 🤔You are now saying that you never said Arkane flat out used the lore as an excuse for the A.I. behaviour and yet in previous posts, which I have quoted many times now, you said, "Arkane expects us to be dumb dumbs and accept it". You said, "Arkane are using it as an excuse for their bad AI coding." Would you like me to quote you again as a reminder? Here ya go :

🤔

So, just so we're clear:  You claim to have played approximately 2 hours of a game that you have formed a strong enough opinion on to conclude that the A.I. is bad and that Arkane are using the lore/eternalists as an excuse for poor A.I. coding, and yet when asked the very basic, simple questions of where you got to in the story, what discoveries you made and, most importantly, what part of the game you played your response is, "I don't know." 🤔 And yet you've also said in a previous post that you've watched a "good bit" of your friend's playthrough but you're now saying your friend wasn't all that far in either. 🤔

Yes, Miss Alanah Pearce, the Sony Santa Monica dev currently working on God of War Ragnarok, is making assumptions in a field she is researched and well experienced in. However, Miss Pearce is not out here claiming that Arkane has said this is their intent, nor has she said they're using this as an excuse to mask poor A.I... Additionally, Miss Pearce makes a good point that in Arkane's previous games the A.I. is more punishing, and seeing as they are using the same Void engine and the same team as Dishonoured 2 it would not make sense that they have suddenly forgotten how to code "good" A.I. Furthermore, you're now saying you're going by your "intuition" as to how you know game design works but earlier you said that was coloured by what you read in reviews and from the people you follow on twitter. 🤔

Oh, my sincerest apologies. I guess the quote I've reposted many times where you quite blatantly say Arkane used the lore as an, "excuse for their bad A.I. coding" and that the "lore explanation" is a "band aid for poor design" that "Arkane expect us to be dumb, dumbs and just accept" - which at the very least shows you're saying Arkane endorses this - was just my lying eyes deceiving me once again. 🤔

"A city bit"  🤔 Oh yes, the "snowy area". Such highly descriptive terms... that can easily be viewed on YouTube and marketing screenshots. Indeed, for many games we don't necessarily need more than 2 hours to come to the conclusion about A.I. but what we do need is to actually play the game.

Oh, you're now saying game dev writers aren't developers? 🤔🤔🤔 Is that right???  Let me get this straight: You finished a game design course that apparently taught you that game dev writers aren't developers? Is that right??? May I introduce you to some quotes from, bear with me, developers:

"I don't know wtf thinks writers/narrative people aren't devs, but that's completely ignorant of how games actually get made. I can't believe this even has to be said. I work with writers and narrative folks consistently throughout development, from preproduction to ship. They're involved in dialogue recording, implementation, quest/mission text, in-game readable text, subtitles, all of it." - Mark Kilborn, Forza and Call of Duty sound designer.

https://gameworldobserver.com/2021/09/13/game-developers-on-why-everyone-from-writers-to-hr-and-designers-should-be-considered-devs

Evidentially, according to this developer and other developers in that article, if one is developing a game they are a developer. It's why they appear on the end credits of games on the development team which, by the way, includes the writers. Who are developers... 

Indeed, whether or not you agree with Alanah that the A.I was intentional or not is a discussion...but that's not our discussion. We are discussing the fact that you said Arkane said that the "dumb" A.I. is due to lore reasons/eternalist behaviour and are using that as an excuse to mask A.I. coding errors. And yet you have not been able to produce any evidence of Arkane saying this.

Yes, I watched the Jim Sterling video last night. It's a great video about how pre-order bonuses can break a game. Steph's, as they go by now, comment about "narrative justification" is, once again, Steph's interpretation but Steph, much like James Troughton, much like Eurogamer, much like the "people you follow on twitter" does not work for Arkane studios. You said Arkane Studios said that the A.I. is dumbed down due to lore reasons/eternalist behaviour and that this was their lie to mask A.I. coding errors and yet, once again, you were not able to produce a quote from Arkane Studios actually saying this, and you've still not been able to produce a quote from Arkane Studios saying this.🤔

Interesting. Let me pick your brain for a moment: would you believe one who contradicts oneself from post to post with inconsistencies in one's stories about how much one has played or how much the proverbial "friend" has played while evading questions about what one has played before finally answering said questions only to respond with, "I don't know."?🤔

Interesting. You have only now, after several posts of me asking for specifics, mentioned the gas chamber puzzle which is one of the game's many secrets that, again, like anything from Deathloop can be viewed on YouTube. The curious thing is, Retro, you who claims to have played 2 hours of this game that your friend wasn't very far in, that in order to encounter this secret gas chamber you would have to be far in the game and know the map very well seeing as it's a secret so hidden that it looks like it's out of the bounds of the map to the point where many people won't actually discover it. 🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔🤔

Indeed, the writer may not be coding. But that's not what you said. You said that game writers are not devs. You said, "As for Alanah, I dont want to belittle the point she is making making because it's equally valid but I'd you want to bring up credentials Alanah isn't a dev. She is a writer for Santa Monica. " 🤔 And yet it is obvious to anyone who has worked in game development or done game design courses that game writers are developers since they are involved in the development of the game. 🤔

Interesting. Originally in post 190 of this thread you said that you can't find evidence of Arkane saying this. Now you're saying you won't find evidence of Arkane saying this. Would you like me to remind you of your exact words? Here ya go: "As for the second point I said I couldn't find anything from Arkane when I went back to look."  🤔