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Anti-British Xenophobia and Hatred in Ireland

1235722

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Neither was I, but what we have today is a result of the past. As for groupthink, we're still a tiny country with a tiny population and until very recently a very homogenous one and we still have the sniff of the parish and parochial thinking and smaller groups of people in charge who all know one another. Even so I'm not seeing the level of groupthink you see. Can you give examples?

    Now let's look at the UK. England has fifty million more people than Ireland. Hell Scotland that is like Australia in being mostly empty save for bits around the edges(thank London for that too) has a half million more people than Ireland. Given the population is so much bigger in England you'd expect to see less "groupthink" and a lot more individual thinking, by mere virtue of numbers, but you don't really.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    I'm sure Gerry Conlon and his family, same with the Birmingham 6, would dispute that it "wasn't that bad".



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Obviously their experience was exceptional and terrible, but it isn't reflective of what life was like for most Irish people in the UK at the time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I would say the opposite is true.

    The English in general are far more likely to follow rules than we are. The Irish like to thumb their noses authority due a history of oppression.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    But for the most part, this distrust is aimed at British institutions moreso than British people. Cultural memory tells us that Westminster looks out for English interests only, in the main, that British institutions will put Britain and the crown before everything else. It also tells us that British politicians absolutely cannot be trusted in the promises they make to non-British entities, and if you're not English, you'll get stabbed in the back if necessary to further English interests.

    This pretty much. And like you say it's London and the English institutions and authority. This United Kingdom and Great(er) Britain is more a PR sop to the non English and English who aren't in authority and don't toe the line. While it was certainly worse in the past, it's still a very heirarchical society in many ways.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    There is a fair bit of anti English stuff around alright, which is wrong and people blaming you for things that happened even before you were born is disgraceful. I don't think racism extends to shouting for other teams in soccer, I desperately wanted England to lose the Euro final, but its the same part of the brain that had me supporting a team facing our neighbouring hurling club two weeks ago.

    I don't think SF coming into Government will make anti English racism more acceptable either. I actually think the anti-English stuff while still bad isn't what it was 20 years ago, but obviously any amount of it is wrong.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    It’s hard to know with the Sinn Fein stuff and I’m probably being harsh because I’m aware not everyone voting them will hold anti British views. I’m probably basing it on Brexit, those morons who held xenophobic views now have a platform and are not ashamed to say what they think, where as pre Brexit they probably kept these views more to themselves, (not all of them granted)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Well beit ,the media, political class or the so called intelligentsia, every one of them have more or less the same view on everything


    Brexit unconditionally bad

    Immigration unconditionally good

    Gender identity politics a good thing

    Environmental issues

    Size of the welfare state

    American politics



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    A lot of generalisations and sensationalism around something that goes on in every country I have ever been to.

    FFS England thrives on mocking and deriding the accent...especially of those they have a grudge about.

    'Allo Allo'? 'Auf Wiedersen Pet'?, 'Fawlty Towers'? I could literally go on and on and on.

    Deriding other nations is deeply embedded in English/British culture, is there an undercurrent of hate there?.

    Over sensitivity leads to blindness obviously.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    What are you banging on about? When have I spoken about accents apart from saying it barely gets mentioned one year to the next?

    what has fawlty towers got to do with it? Are you ok? Do you need help? Or do you just enjoy commenting on every single British post in the history of boards… goes without saying you’re not anti British of course!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    I can understand people thinking SF voters are anti British, because the party is so strongly nationalist, but I think that'd be a bit of an oversimplification and to be fair the North and all that goes with it is complex.

    Unfortunately people with a middling knowledge of history who have had little exposure to England and the English often like to imagine they are vastly different people, meaner, colder, more class obsessed, xenophobic etc. In reality the English are similar to the Irish. That's just a fact.

    There are some differences in culture and outlook, certainly there are, but overall we are similar peoples. It'd upset people to acknowledge that, but it's the truth.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,691 ✭✭✭✭silverharp


    A belief in gender identity involves a level of faith as there is nothing tangible to prove its existence which, as something divorced from the physical body, is similar to the idea of a soul. - Colette Colfer



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Ah right..it wasn't you who reckoned if SF get in that your experience in the chipper where you got blamed for 800 years of oppression was likely to get more prevalent?

    Okie doke.

    And as I asked Aegir who made the same accusation about me posting on 'British threads', (according to him/her I am 'obsessive' apparently) can you post evidence of me 'enjoying' 'commenting on every single British post in the history of boards'?

    I'll even make research easy for you, lets have a look at a few current ones:

    Boris Johnson love-bombs HGV drivers to return to work — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    Harry and Meghan - OP updated with Threadbanned Users 4/5/21 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    US and UK to now furnish Australia with nuclear submarines. — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    New Alternative News Channel "GB News" chaired by Andrew Neil launching - read OP before posting - Page 155 — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'

    Great British Food Shortages - Brexit or "Pingdemic"?? — boards.ie - Now Ye're Talkin'


    Knock yourself out proving your oversensitive theory there. 😁



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    you might want to get yourself an understanding of what "Existential Threat" actually means.

    but I guess for the ultra nationalist, terms like that are important to keep the hatred alive and rationalise atrocities.

    btw, as a pro EU federalist, you should be aware that the EU is technically the biggest political existential threat to the Irish state at this moment in time.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    This is an outright lie.

    Please show where you have 'seen (my) your account in nearly every British themed thread ever mentioned'.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Agreed there are many similarities, there are of course some differences but overall it’s much for muchness.


    Funny you mention the class systems though, they very much exist here, when I first moved to Dublin I was told by the southasiders don’t live on the north side, thought I was moving to a war zone or something 🤣.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Who are these people who like to imagine they are 'vastly' different?

    Can you show some evidence of this?

    Irish and English people have intermingled happily for centuries, there is no 'vast' difference.

    The truth is that there are some areas where some British are 'vastly' different culturally and societally. And when that rubs against other cultures it causes a reaction.



  • Registered Users Posts: 93 ✭✭Windowsnut


    But I presume it was moderated, deleted and the poster possibly sanctioned or banned. The comments on the Daily Mail and Express are still there for all to see.....



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs



    Again because we're a small population in the scheme of things the media, politicos and intelligentsia are also small in number and tend to know each other and churn in the same media pit, so you're more likely to have general agreements. Even so we still have outliers. So SF would have different views than FG as an example. We also have the John Waters types in the mix too who would be very much outliers.

    Brexit unconditionally bad

    Well, let's face it at the moment it's pretty bloody bad and worse it seems to be getting by the week. Panic buying of petrol and a winter of discontent looming not seen since the 1970's. A perfect storm of pandemic and brexit. It might not be unconditionally bad, but it's certainly conditionally bad.

    Immigration unconditionally good

    Yep, that's a thing alright, but outside of RTE there are questions being raised and let's not forget when the referendum to close the birthright loophole was held, one of the largest majorities of any Irish referendum voted to close it. Even a recent and slanted poll conducted by the Journal.ie found that while a majority of people wanted to accept more than 250 Afghan refugees into Ireland the same poll found that the same majority didn't want to accept any more than 1000.

    Gender identity politics a good thing

    More in the media than anything. In the real world, at least outside corporate American companies here it barely registers.

    Environmental issues

    Well we need to adress them and quickly. It's the how is the thing and that's a confused mess with little enough concrete agreement beyond agreeing we need to do something and that's not just in this country. Not by a long way.

    Size of the welfare state

    Gievn the grumblings for and agin it I don't see much of the same views at all.

    American politics

    That's more online than elsewhere, but yes I'd agree that the Irish need to look elsewhere has always had America in playm but that too many these days ape their bullshít over here in a very different(thankfully) society. Not just the Irish right on either. The Irish right wing ape their Yank cousins just as much. For every impressionable Irish eejit waxing about cis gender and intersectionalities, you have another impressionable Irish eejit wittering on about Trump and libertarianism. While both have increasingly mid atlantic accents.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Oh, they exist here for sure as well, but they're different to the UK. I think because the UK is more of an urban society it's more clear than than it would be in Ireland, outside of Dublin.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Had a good laugh at that! To which we might add that a 'Westbrit' is also someone who doesn't blindly swallow and regurgitate the 'Christian Brother' version of Irish history that has been shoved down the throats of schoolchildren here for the last 100 years.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Another sensationalist lazy generalisation.

    The 'Christian Brothers' version of Irish history had disappeared when I was at school and I'm almost 60.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    Not sure how I missed that one either, very funny!!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,810 ✭✭✭✭looksee


    I am a brit who has lived in Ireland all my adult life, over 50 years. In the 70's and 80's there was definitely anti-Brit xenophobia, to the point of obsession in some people. Over the years my experience has been that it has reduced to negligible levels and is really only to be found among the people who are haters anyway and will hate on any group that they and their own immediate circle are not part of, and those who spend more time looking over their shoulders than looking forward.

    I still have a noticeable English regional accent which is often commented on, but these days it is more out of interest and casual chat than the 'what are you doing here' attitude that used be prevalent. Time was that in any casual conversation someone hearing my accent would bring up Irish history and explain it to me in accusatory detail, as though no-one had thought to do it before, though noticeably men, women never seemed to bother. That has changed completely.

    Over the last few years there has been considerable talk of the lunacy that is the British government at the moment. Feel free to criticise the instigators and fools who have done so much damage, and even the ordinary people who have been sucked into the damaging, racist, self-centred, idiocy that is Brexit. I do it myself, and so do many other Brits. This is not the same as xenophobia towards Brits as a whole.

    Trying to rouse up aggravation on the topic is less than helpful, it just gives bigots opportunities and overstates the situation.

    This is just my experience, maybe I have become desensitised to some extent, maybe I move in different circles. I can pretty much guarantee though that the people engaging in Brit hate in Ireland are the same ones that would turn their attention to anyone of a different colour, creed, sexual orientation or background as the occasion arose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I think people forget that in general in the UK they wouldn't know a lot about just how much England had an impact on Ireland and Irish culture. They wouldn't know a lot about that history. Ireland is a minor a side note in their history. It's hardly covered in their schools, at least none that I've talked to.

    So when they mostly don't have that context (or baggage) in any interaction in Ireland or with Irish people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    They done a show on BBC I think or UTV with two students in the UK, one in NI and one in England. The person in NI was talking about the history of the North etc, the impact of the UK etc. The English student had no idea, none. This is not covered at all in their history. Both I think about 18 years of age.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady




  • Registered Users Posts: 259 ✭✭Will_I_Amnt


    Very strange experiece for me with the penalty shoot-out at the final of the Euro's. I felt like I should be shouting for Italy. But while all around me were cheering when Italy won it, I was actually a fair bit disappointed for England


    As for the Ryder cup, 6 out of the 12 European players were from England. It's a bit of an easy target to say it was the fault of the English


    Their politicians are a joke though.  



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Shoog


    That's not really my experience. The English are a nation of subjects not citizens, this makes them very deferential to establishment figures.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭hawley


    No, it's still there. The very first sentence of the thread.

    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058210497/boris-johnson-love-bombs-hgv-drivers-to-return-to-work/p1

    "Can't think of anything more likely to keep me away from work, than this prcik sending me a letter, appealing to me to come back. If I could do anything, however small or trivial, to upset or annoy him, I would, and with the greatest pleasure."



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    Witness the level of deference here to Michael D , the level of deference to the bishop's in the past?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 70,127 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Somebody thinks a politician is a '**' and this is evidence of xenophobia? Tenuous in the extreme.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,170 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Because I had a relative that lived there I was over and back to England a few times as a kid and that was one of the first things I noticed back then when hanging out with the local kids. Because of having the UK TV channels I knew way more about their history and cultural references than they did about mine. They had near zero exposure to Irish history and cultural references. Going over there as an adult was the same pretty much, though there had been a growth in some back and forth. Even so when shooting the breeze about this sorta thing back with locals in the 90's there was still a fair number who had a vague notion that the Rep of Ireland was somehow still attached to the UK. A devolved parliment country not unlike the North. More independent than Scotland or Wales, but kinda like Canada or Australia kinda thing. I remember some surprise with a few that our money, punts back then, didn't have their queen on the notes, or that we were fully independent, no queen involved with a constitution. But like you say it's just not covered or barely in their educational system.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭Sonics2k




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    it took 236 posts before we got to that. I'm impressed.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,253 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    And the best part is I was born in London so people can't even give out to me for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Sinn Fein with their open borders, amnesty anyone here, let everyone in, no deportations is "strongly nationalist"?? Maybe 20 years ago Sunny.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    What's so upsetting about calling Boris Johnson a prick? He is made out of 100% penis meat. IMO, he is the worst leader of the UK I've seen in my lifetime and I was alive for the Thatcher Years. The cabinet he has surrounded himself with are absolutely heinous and without a shred of empathy for what the ordinary person has suffered through during their tenure. I

    I've no problem with people in the UK and wouldn't ever dream of ever giving anyone hassle based on their accent or where they're from. That doesn't mean I can't be critical of a government that has been an absolute mess since the day they took power.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,392 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Ah come on Francie, you don't have to read very far down any thread here on Boards that relates to Ireland/ NI/ Brits, to see the same old tropes being trotted out. It's endemic and getting worse if you ask me.

    What's closer to the reality is what you say, that Irish and British people are much the same on the whole. But we love to dislike the Brits at the same time, just as you'd dislike an overbearing sibling.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    What deference? I think most people (Irish and others) are confused about the role of president. I don't think Irish people treat it as mostly position without much of a political role and therefore significance, except where it does. I would say its treated more of cultural ambassador. I think people outside of Ireland think it has more significance than it does. Perhaps that it has political relevance than it does.

    Also the role of the church in Ireland has very different dynamic to the population than say the the Church role in the UK. I'm not sure those differences are widely understood or appreciated. Also that relationship has radically changed in Ireland. Not so much in the UK.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    lived in the UK a few years now, so I'm over any Xenophobia aspects..... and I still don't particularly like them... nor they of me



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,205 ✭✭✭jiltloop


    Most Brits are sound I find. It's their politicians I hate.


    Of course there is the scummy English element which are destestable but we have plenty of our own homegrown scumbags here.


    I do dislike when you encounter their general ignorance on anything Irish or on their own empire's history.


    I think if you separate most of the people from the empire/politicians you can legitimately hate Britain.

    Hating all Brits is just lazy and a bit ignorant. (And really stupid if you're a big Utd or Liverpool fan).



  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭The Silver Branch


    A West Brit definition for me.

    1. Often found in the Pale. That is Dublin and parts of Wicklow, Louth, Meath and Kildare.

    2. By no means exclusive to the Pale, can be found anywhere in Ireland.

    3. It's a state of mind that British culture is superior to Irish. RTE, TG4 seldom watched etc.

    4. Is often a result of residual, post colonial inferiority.

    5. Irish language is sometimes held in disdain.

    6. Particular disdain for Gaelic games (described as bogball, stick games etc). Some West Brits posters on sites like Boards will start anti GAA rant threads. Will watch Brentford v Norwich over a Dublin v Mayo all Ireland in football, or Limerick v Cork in hurling.

    7. Can be associated with rugby in Leinster, especially D4. Not as much provincially.

    8. Affected accents. High intonation at the end of a sentence. Country wannabes who head to Dublin and other cities lose their own accent in less than 3 months.

    9. Major preoccupation with British royal weddings, Harry and Meghan etc. Particularly among females.

    10. In politics, ala John Bruton, a tendency to take the side of unionism, however irrational. Have a smug sense of moral and intellectual superiority. Would attend the licking of a stamp on a unionist envelope and argue it's a massive gesture towards, peace, reconciliation and brotherhood.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I dunno, Irish telly can be quite shite at times



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  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭The Silver Branch


    That's true but the West Brit will always watch Sky or BBC News over Rte. Not talking Fair City so much, though they will watch EastEnders or Coronation Street over it. The tendency not to watch Rte for any programme is more prevalent. They are much more UK focussed.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,110 ✭✭✭The Raging Bile Duct


    Britain's got over thirteen times the population so there's going to be a far greater chance that they are going to produce better television and films and have a much more diverse and sustainable arts and music scene than we can hope to achieve.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,566 ✭✭✭✭Tony EH


    And it isn't only Ireland that has that "cultural memory" of distrust of Britain either. You can go to plenty of places throughout Europe and Asia and hear the same mutterings. The British Empire left a mark on many countries throughout the world that will take a long time to erase. Certainly more than 100+ years that's for sure. In addition the fallout of that Empire, as exemplified by our own situation and their partitioning of the North, left an even deeper residue of that Imperial period that made moving on significantly more difficult.



  • Registered Users Posts: 204 ✭✭The Silver Branch


    British people are fine. No matter what the nationality most are fine people and a few bad eggs.

    We have a bit of history with English governments! A minority who follow their football team would put you off supporting them.

    Hating the English is ridiculous, life's too short for such rubbish. We have a lot of connections with the UK, while being proud of our own identity.

    This thread seems to have stemmed from Michael D's decision not to attend the Northern event. He was dead right not to mark partition. Nothing he did, or those of us who support him, in anyway equates to hating English/British people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭indioblack


    On one visit to my relatives in Cork I was sitting in a pub with some of my Irish cousins, [there are always Irish cousins - they almost qualify as a seperate ethnic group]. One of them had brought her husband along, a man I had never met. Almost immediately after our introduction he enquired, as if he was talking to a particularly backward 8 year old, if I knew what happened in 1916. We were in a pub, in Ireland, in Cork - so 1916 only meant one thing. Our ensuing debate went gradually downhill as I discovered there were a couple of aspects of Easter Week and it's aftermath that he appeared to be unaware of. He had made the not unreasonable assumption that I was woefully ignorant of Anglo-Irish history, and I couldn't blame him for that.

    I can't recall learning anything useful at school about our shared, [mostly unwilling], history.

    Over the years I've attempted to remedy this deficiency by the cunning use of...........books.

    Perhaps there should be some compulsion, some requirement, that people should be educated about certain areas of history. Maybe.

    In my case, with one Irish parent and regular contact with the town where she was born, I provided the compulsion to learn a bit myself.

    My first rule was - before reading anything, consider the author. Who they are, where they're from, what is their angle, what's their message, what bias do they have - everybody has an angle of approach, it's unlikely to find someone with a genuinely objective view in this business.

    It's no secret that the English know little about this shared history.

    It's also been my experience that some Irish people, [perhaps more than a few], know less about Anglo-Irish history than they would like to think.



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