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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    If Alfie Lyons killed her he wouldn't have had the foggiest notion she kept diaries. Seems to me like this person was acutely aware of how she worked. ie. Past romantic involvement. I think that eliminates AL and IB. More likely the Bantry detective or the young French student.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit


    Ah no Jim.....you misunderstand me. I`ve given up explaining about the door on the latch. Sometimes people just can`t see the wood because of all the darned trees. Sorry to disappoint you. What does P.O.S mean?



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    As does the full bottle of wine which is awfully hard to believe wasn't connected to the events that unfolded. If Daniel and herself were honestly getting on better perhaps she visited Ireland to sever ties with them before retuning to France. The fact she wanted company makes me think she knew the person was volatile.



  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭drumm23




  • Registered Users Posts: 310 ✭✭drumm23


    And the doors clearly on the latch in the picture, it should open with a push.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,065 ✭✭✭tibruit




  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I'd doubt there ever were any diaries.

    The bottle of wine sounds like somebody might have stolen it before the murder and then didn't want to be found with it after, so disposed of it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,511 ✭✭✭OwlsZat


    Who was the source for the stolen diaries?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Who has the energy to search back through the thread? (Bring back Moonunit).

    It was a French report if I remember correctly, it said 3 diares, 1995, 96 & 97 were missing. 97 being blank obviously.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    The story of the 3 stolen diaries should be taken with the same pinch of salt as the 3 large suitcases,

    the white lady at 3 castle head , Marie Farrell's 3 sightings of Ian Bailey and the third secret of Fatima.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    Hadn't seen that quote before.

    Someone breaking in to a stranger's house to use the bath is a very odd person indeed. Like, who would do that? I don't buy the hobo thing, are hobos just roaming the remote West Cork countryside?

    Regardless, someone capable of breaking and entering for bathing purposes is clearly a little unhinged? If it is true that she was hoping to catch this person in the act then maybe that night she did? I wonder was it an ongoing problem since the time she was there with Carbonett or had changing the locks stopped it?

    Changing the locks seems to suggest she was concerned that this person had a key. How would they have come to have a copy of her house key? Was it someone she had had at the house consensually in the past?

    A dispute with a person using her bath might sorta tie in with the block from the pumphouse being used to deliver the final blows.

    Wild speculation but an interesting thought.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    A professional wouldn't have had the need for keys, a professional would have picked the lock with ease.

    There are only a couple of imminent suspects who would have had a key:

    The previous owner, the estate agent and the cleaning lady, - that is unless Sophie changed the locks when she bought the house.

    Maybe the cleaning lady wasn't as thorough as she claimed to be and didn't clean the bath tub? It doesn't make much sense as Sophie would probably have paid her more than properly, but again, it could have easily been as well that way. Like she missed it once or twice?

    Maybe the house was used to hide somebody and whoever was hiding whomever knew the house was not lived in.

    If the house was cleaned on one day, the bathtub used the next, and then Sophie arrived, it would suggest very very local knowledge on who comes and goes and when....that is, if the cleaning lady really cleaned the bathtub.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    If the person who used the bath cleaned it and closed the window no one would even know he was there. So not very smart. hobo or new age hippie i would say. Not planning a murder and didn't care or think about drawing attention to themselves. It always amazes me when people doing something wrong draw attention to themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The person using the bath would have had some understanding about the house. Where to switch on the electricity and the gas and even the water at the mains, I don't think one would consider a cold bath in a cold house and quite possibly in darkness.

    I assume the gas and electricity would have been turned off at the mains during longer absences. Suppose the cleaning lady turned it on, just in time for Sophie to arrive, that would indicate that the one using the bath only had a very limited amount of time to do so, and would have had the house under observation and knowledge when who would be coming and going.

    It's also possible, that the cleaning lady simply forgot to clean the bath tub.



  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭kerry_man15


    I find it hard to believe someone could use the house/bathtub without Alfie/Shirley noticing. That means it was either them or they knew who was using it. They literally pass within feet of the back of the house when they are coming and going. As mentioned, the electricity, gas and water would probably need to be turned on each time as the house wasn't used frequently. They would surely notice a stranger loitering or walking up the road as it's such a remote place and only the 3 houses at the end.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Unless Alfie and Shirley or somebody known to them were the ones using it.

    According to the pictures, Sophie kept little to no curtains in front of the windows. Anybody turning on the light would have been noticed even from quite a distance.

    That is, if the bath was taken when it was dark outside.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Maybe Mrs. Hellen used the bath herself and forgot to clean it,

    or maybe hubby used it , didn't they have horses close by?

    They'd be most likely to be able to turn on the power and the hot water.

    Changing the door locks appeared to stop the break-ins through the porch window?



  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Annd9


    Getting back to Ian Bailey and the long dark coat he wore . In Sheridan's documentary Jules claims the Garda took this jacket for testing but I have never heard of any results coming from this .

    You would imagine this item of clothing would be covered in blood/muck if it been worn by Bailey that night . Is this another crucial piece of evidence that just disappeared aswell ?

    Apologies if it has already been brought up but this has bugged me ever since I watched the documentary .



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,418 ✭✭✭✭odyssey06


    The Guards took a black coat from Bailey's property for testing which came back negative.

    In the Netflix documentary, Detective Dwyer said Bailey burned the coat. Didn't mention anything about the other coat.

    The Guards seem to think that he burned the actual black coat, and this was a different black coat.

    Without explaining why he would have multiple similar jackets, or where he got the other black coat after the murder.

    At no point did they show the coat handed in to witnesses to see if people remembered Bailey wearing it, no mention of whether the coat looked new or old...

    Oh and bonus points, during the GSOC investigation, the Guards lost \ lost track of the coat and don't know what happened to it.

    "To follow knowledge like a sinking star..." (Tennyson's Ulysses)



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Of most relevance about the bath is that Josephine said somewhere that Sophie was suspicious of Alfie getting into her house.

    Alfie and Shirley were close to everything but weren't put under much pressure. This contrasts sharply with how Ian and Jules were arrested and questioned for about 10 hours each. I think that within 24 hours of this murder, at the very least, the Guards should have been around at Alfie's house with a search warrant. They could have been apologetic saying it's just procedure, we have to rule you out since you found the body. The most likely explanation is that there was something about that house or Alfie and Shirley that had to be kept quiet.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Still whoever used it could have cleaned it and would have if they had any other motive for being there. They would not want to betray their presence



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,900 Mod ✭✭✭✭whiterebel


    Jules said the coat was cut into one inch squares during the forensics search, AFAIR.



  • Registered Users Posts: 79 ✭✭Polly701


    I think it's entirely possible that someone was using the house when it was empty.. And that Sophie changed the locks because of it shows that she took this possibility very seriously.

    This person (or persons) never came forward to rule themselves out.

    It is strange that Alfie & Shirley wouldn't notice this happening.. I'd love to know what they thought of it.. Do they believe that someone was gaining access to Sophie's house in her absence? Did she discuss it with them? Presumably you would talk about this with your close neighbour?!

    The black coat is a red herring I think.. Bailey was wearing it in the Christmas Day swim video two days later! They did take a black coat for testing.. If they had found a single speck of blood or anything on it we would all know about it.

    The unopened bottle of red wine is a mystery.. The sort of person who might steal it would surely drink it too before discarding it? Who throws away a full bottle of wine... Maybe someone in a rage? Somewhere much earlier on this thread I posted a theory that her ex boyfriend Bruno (who had previously intimidated her and been violent towards her) may have turned up unexpectedly that night at the gate with the wine in hand to try and win her back - she told him to leave and it turned nasty. This is still possible.. But the wine bottle wasn't found until four months later? I know the Guards were poor in this case but surely they combed through every piece of land in the area?



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's a very interesting point. It would also point to somebody with "local knowledge". Regarding that case, there was nothing more local than Alfie and Shirley. It would also point to the idea that Alfie and Shirley were related the the police corruption going on in this case.

    However this doesn't give us any ideas why the bathtub was used, nor what Alfie or Shirley could have found so interesting about Sophie's house that their house couldn't offer? Also theft was never reported, there was probably nothing worth stealing in Sophie's house.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The coat, along with several other items of clothing, were sent for forensic testing. Initially this was quite basic, blood grouping etc, which showed there were some blood markings, but were NOT a match to Sophie. They were sent to a northern Ireland forensic lab (along with other items such as the blood on door, sophies clothes etc), for more advanced dna testing, again absolutely no match to Sophie.

    I believe there were further tests done in 2002 on certain items but I'm not sure exactly which except for the blood on the door which was at that point confirmed to be Sophies.

    It's worth noting that there were some blood marks that couldn't be grouped, I'm certain the concrete block, blood on Sophies boot, the gate and other items at the scene.

    The fact is that absolutely nothing linked Ian to Sophie forensically, and it's an urban myth that none were found or taken. Just none that matched Ian and none of Sophies on any of Ians many items that were tested.

    I'm of the opinion that many items could be re-tested now with advanced dna technology, but of course many of these items have been "misplaced"



  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭kerry_man15


    What I've aways found strange was the fact that Sophie ran away from the one place she probably would have been safe that night - Alfies/Shirleys house. Especially someone in fear of their life. It's such a short distance away, highly unlikely someone would kill her if she made it to their house screaming etc. It makes me wonder if that is where the threat was coming from, why else would you not try to get help from them? The other house was unoccupied and there is nothing else along that long road, the next nearest place is about 1km away. It's never sat right with me. How do we know that Shirley's discovery of the body was authentic? It could have been staged. It's quite possible that there was an altercation with them that got out of hand, they would have had time to 'clean' the scene and get their story straight. Maybe Sophie had gone up there to confront them, an altercation could have started there before retreating back to her own place. It seems strange that they were never considered seriously. It's like they just said we heard nothing, were in bed together and the guards said 'oh right, fair enough'. Were they ever thoroughly investigated and considered suspects? Alfie even had a bandage on his hand that day apparently. Did they ever check to see if it really was a dog bite or a human bite mark? Especially since they didn't even have a dog.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Mrs Hellen had motive to be there as the housekeeper,

    she would not need to hide her presence.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    Nothing worth stealing? How about a bottle of wine that was being kept for an occasion, since it was a nice one. Then after there's been a murder you get rid of it out the window of your car down the road from your house. Plausible



This discussion has been closed.
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