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Sarah Everard Murder - Serving Met Officer Arrested *Mod Note in OP*

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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Murder carries a mandatory life sentence here and in the UK.



  • Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    I'm not sure. To get to the point where you are nicknamed "the rapist" you wonder what he felt he could openly get away with in front of his colleagues. So were there internal incidents of harassment of female colleagues? Were there incidents where he was inappropriate with a witness or suspect? Or did his colleagues witness him abusing his position in the course of his job? It will be interesting to see if his management turned a blind eye to the incidents that led to his nickname, or covered it up, shuffling him around.

    The first recorded incidence of flashing was way back in 2015. Kent Police didn't feel it was worth investigating. To be fair to them, the Met also didn't feel that the flashing incident prior to Sarah's murder wasn't worth investigating either. But these kind of things should be. They are a strong indicator of the beginning of deviant behaviour. And combined with the reasons for the origin of his nickname it really does make you wonder why he wasn't fired from the force long ago.

    For contrast, this police officer was correctly sacked for social media posts relating to BLM. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-tyne-58732940. IOPC regional director Miranda Biddle said: "There is no place in policing for officers who make offensive comments of any kind, whether on or off duty and whether in a public or private forum." So offensive comments are unacceptable, and rightly so, but being a sex pest is...grand?



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,651 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    I understand it can influence considerations in terms of minimum term/parole.

    Link

    The Criminal Justice Act 2003 sets out guidelines for how long murderers should spend in prison before being considered for parole. Judges are not obliged to follow the guidelines, but must give reasons in court if they depart from them - whether recommending a lesser or higher minimum term than in accordance with the guidelines.[9]


    The guidelines recommended that multiple murderers (who murder two or more people) whose crimes involved sexual abuse, pre-planning, abduction or terrorism should never be released from prison. Such a sentence is known as a "whole life order". The murder of a single child following abduction, sexual or sadistic conduct also qualifies, as does the murder of a police or prison officer during the course of their duty (since 2015) and murder committed to advance a political, religious or ideological cause - along with any murder which was committed by someone who had previously been convicted of murder. Other multiple murders (two or more) should carry a recommended minimum of 30 years as a starting point sentence prior to consideration of additional aggravating factors and of any mitigating factors.


    A 30-year minimum should also apply to the worst single murders, including those with sexual or racial motives and the use of a firearm - until 2015, the murder of a police officer in the course of duty also came within this category. Most other murders should be subject to a 15-year minimum as a starting point. There have been numerous departures from these guidelines since they were first put into practice. For example, the judge who sentenced American fugitive David Bieber for the murder of a police officer said that he should never be released from prison,[10] whereas statutory guidelines recommended a 30-year minimum for this type of murder - this was a decade before the act was amended to include the murder of a police officer in the course of duty as one of the offenders whose life sentences should mean life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,380 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    A very small number of lifers get to spend the actual remainder of their lives in prison.



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That is decided by a parole board and ministers for justice.



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  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The victim impact statement doesn't influence the release. But later statements by the victim organist can have influence on the parole board.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,380 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    The judge sets minimum term at sentencing though. They can also specify a sentence without parole. This can be contested and overruled but it is a lengthy and costly process.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,651 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    The potential for release can be stipulated by the judge at sentencing, no? As such can the statement not influence this?



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    You're talking about possible actions that might lessen the chances of this murder taking place though, right?

    I would argue that dumping him off the force doesn't necessarily achieve that end. It really depends what happens to him after he gets the boot. Is he forced to undergo psychological assessment to ascertain his potential risk to society? Or is he just forgotten about like a lot of people that get sacked for misconduct in their job? Because the latter means he possibly still goes on to commit this crime.

    We don't really know how much evidence there was around these flashing incidents. Were they just random unsubstantiated claims, with very little evidence to prove their validity? He could have survived those claims easily enough, and co-workers were forced to work alongside him despite feeling uncomfortable. The nickname might have been their efforts to mentally deal with this reality. I wouldn't necessarily be quick to judge his co-workers, who had no choice in working with him. Jokes and nicknames might have been their way of easing the anxiety of being in his company. Who knows?

    I'm not making excuses for him. He seems like a creep. But lots stuff can seem much clearer with the benefit of hindsight.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Posts: 18,749 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    True that a judge can set a minimum time before the prisoner is eligible for parole, but again, when the prisoner is released is for the parole board to decide.

    Also, it's released on licence, so should he get into trouble again he can be returned to prison. It is a life sentence, just maybe not all his life actually in the prison.

    Horrible individual, can't imagine any prison will be easy on him!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Be right back


    What the hell is wrong with some people?




  • Registered Users Posts: 494 ✭✭Billgirlylegs


    I think statement like this is similar in principle to a eulogy.

    People would like "something" to be said, but there is no formal setting. Some judges/some priests have no problem with "the few words" being said and some don't allow them, as they are not part of the formal process.

    It is also possible that something inappropriate will be said, which will appear to have some official sanction.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think its very important that the family speak, it brings the value of the life that monster stole to the forefront of the publics mind, she becomes more than a stranger then.

    Its important too that all aspects of this monsters life are examined specifically in relation to the flashing allegations, how was this dealt with,were any steps taken to ensure this man received professional help, was he suspended,did anything happen at all.

    If nothing happened then this means there are other rotten Policemen flashing now too and getting away with it.This behaviour should be dealt with no matter where it happens because it often is just the start of deviant behaviour.

    The Police cant be allowed to brush up any of Couzens history under the carpet, If he had been sacked as he should have been he wouldnt have been able to convince Sarah he was a policeman, she was thirty two, she would have shouted and called for help but he had the means and what she thought was the authority to arrest her so she obeyed him,the worthless piece of trash.

    If nothing was done about him then very senior resignations must follow this, up to and including Cressida Dick, she is ultimately responsible for those who work under her.

    RIP Sarah and may your family find peace too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Be right back


    Justice is served.




  • Registered Users Posts: 5,327 ✭✭✭archfi


    Whole life sentence confirmed.

    RIP to the young woman.

    The issue is never the issue; the issue is always the revolution.

    The Entryism process: 1) Demand access; 2) Demand accommodation; 3) Demand a seat at the table; 4) Demand to run the table; 5) Demand to run the institution; 6) Run the institution to produce more activists and policy until they run it into the ground.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Scuid Mhór


    It could only ever be this. Now he’ll be confined to a small room for the rest of his life, isolated from society, just as he deserves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Be right back


    It's a pity he won't be able to mix with the general prison population, give him a taste of his own medicine.



  • Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    You're talking about possible actions that might lessen the chances of this murder taking place though, right?

    Yes. Had he been relieved of his post, then he wouldn't be able to flash his warrant card.

    The fact is that his card and the handcuffing means that a) the victim won't struggle - she thinks she's being arrested not abducted, and b) even if you were a passer by, you'd think "oh, yer wan is getting arrested, wonder what she did?" but c) even if your antenna was twinging at a woman being stopped by a man and say you walked up to check she was safe, a quick flash of his warrant card would have you apologising to the officer and going on your way.

    What's problematic for me is that sexual crimes almost always start off with the minor ones - flashing, stalking, low level harassment. Nothing too serious. And maybe not worth a police investigation at that point, but he's been a long time flashing so was growing more confident, and even showing concerning behaviour to colleagues. Therefore he was escalating. Confident enough to plan an abduction and murder. I won't be one bit surprised if it emerges after this that he routinely stopped and 'arrested' women to rape or sexually them. After all, if a cop rapes you, who are you going to report him to?

    I agree with you that there might not have been enough for a criminal charge to stick, but it was probably more than enough for a HR disciplinary that would have expelled him from the force. Meaning that in order to abduct and murder, he couldn't hide behind the trust the warrant card gave him. I don't think it would have necessarily stopped him if he was really determined, but it sure would make it a lot harder to do it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Be right back


    Part of the judge's summing up and sentencing.




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I think we need to get away from this impulse, it's not healthy for anyone. No abuse is good abuse even when the victim is a rapist themselves. Violence beget violence etc.


    Besides being isolated indefinitely is probably worse and a punishment enough for anything.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,380 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    @Neyite sacking him would not have prevented the crime. It had been a long standing desire, which means he would have found a work around.

    You are right that the internal processes within the organisation need a careful assessment. Some people blend in well and won’t ever raise any suspicions. In this case he had been noticed, though this was either tolerated or not reported/ passed on properly. I’d be very surprised if there were no heads rolling behind the scenes



  • Registered Users Posts: 18 BlockPartee


    Flashing and unwanted sexual advances shouldn't be treated as minor incidents. People should be reprimanded for these incidents and undergo mandatory psychological we evaluations.

    Couzens was also known to be addicted to violent pornography. Porn seems to be widely accepted in our society and I'm sure violent pornography is fairly common. How do we stop this addiction? People seem to have normalised Pornhub and the likes - this website is known to feature violent, underage and non-consensual videos.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,442 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    sacking him would certainly have made it more difficult for him to commit the crime he did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 468 ✭✭Shao Kahn


    I'm not so sure it would make it harder.

    Remember, he was brazen enough to stage a false arrest. This woman was possibly never in trouble with the police before, and had very little idea whether he was acting inappropriately. She was probably also scared, and didn't want to get into trouble. It's possible she was also unfamiliar with what a warrant card even looked like. It's dark too, so did she or anyone else even get a good look at it?

    He could mock up the warrant / ID card easy enough, knowing exactly what one should look like. He didn't even need a marked police vehicle, as he used an unmarked rental. The unmarked car makes him look like a detective or more senior type officer. He could easily pull off the mannerisms and authority of a seasoned officer, even if sacked, because he was one. And he bought hand-cuffs off the internet.

    I don't see why being sacked would necessarily stop this monster. Being sacked might have even pushed him over the edge quicker and made him an outcast and even less concerned with his behavior and actions. Psychopaths don't like being humiliated and taken down from their status in life. In fact it's very often status and position in life, that deters them from acting on their impulses. Not like normal people, who might consider other people's feelings or the wider consequences of their actions.

    I don't really know what the answers are. It's very sad. If it was always easy to spot these guys before harm someone, I guess we wouldn't have an army of professionals trying desperately to understand them. Hopefully we will one day soon.

    "Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives, and it puts itself into our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday." (John Wayne)



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Be right back


    I think he really thought that he would get away with it. Being a policeman and knowing something about forensics. Has he done something similar before?



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,953 ✭✭✭_Whimsical_


    There was a former MET Chief Superintendant interviewed on TV at lunchtime talking about his reputation and why he evaded harsh sanctions including firing. One of the points made was that as a woman police officer who might be most inclined to have concerns about his behaviour, or been victim to his behaviour, it's very difficult to make a complaint as there's is often little appetite to hear itby those in authority and it will follow you through a career in a male dominated environment. You'll be continually thought of as "trouble", male colleagues will be less likely to want to partner you but most worryingly that women who unfairly get this reputation have found that in serious situations when they've radio'ed for backup/help it has not come, or not come in as timely a fashion as it would for other police. The point was made that the consequences for rocking the boat in jobs like this are very real and potentially very serious so it's especially difficult to make formal complaints. What was described mirrored almost exactly the situation in Ireland with women who've been victims of abuse in the Irish Defense Forces.

    Very scary stuff!

    They also made a point of saying that no one should agree to go with a police person in an unmarked car or alone with 1 police officer after arrest or if you are a victim/witness.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Whenever I see these stories of terrible events I always try and think of what that person must have went through.

    There would have been a point where she realised she wasn't being taken to a station and that she'd been kidnapped. There would have been a point where she was raped and then murdered and then burned. Terrible to think how scared she would have felt.

    Was it revealed how she was killed? Strangled was it? What a horror to go through :(



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Pussyhands


    Hard to say. I doubt he went from flashing to rape and murder though.

    I wouldn't think it comes across like he knew much about forensics considering he didn't take into account the amount of CCTV from doorbell cameras and bus cameras.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Be right back


    All of that is relatively new, ie dashcams, doorbell cameras. What might he have done before?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,181 ✭✭✭Be right back


    If anyone wants to read the full judgement sentencing.




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