Brexit discussion thread XIV (Please read OP before posting)

I've always thought that Churchill's wish for a united states of Europe was predicated on Britain (maybe with French assistance) being in charge.

Brexit dogma

There are people emotionally invested in Brexit.

They'll keep fingers firmly in their ears to the bitter end.

Yes, but there are millions that really are not going to be effected, or at least would draw the conclusion that Brexit has anything to do with it.

If your job is working in a garage, or coalmine or whatever, then Brexit won't really have effected you. Anything that has impacted you, petrol shortages etc, you have been told has nothing to do with Brexit and its a problem everywhere.

If you are in a crap job, with a terrible boss, and terrible working conditions, then getting out of that, even if it means a job with less pay, is probably going to feel better. Many people that voted for Brexit were convinced, through a combination of the media and the likes of Farage, that the EU was actually something terrible and causing them untold misery each and everyday.

Based on that, a que for petrol doesn't seem so bad.

Practically all my friends in the UK and me previously were in " crap jobs with crap bosses and terrible pay" and the implications of Brexit were clear from day 1 and still are now. Most of the people in those jobs are in the cities which were mostly against Brexit.

Some people believed a lie that they would be kings if only the dodgy undercutting foreigner who takes the jobs but apparently is also never working and taking benefits is holding them back. Truth is it's largely their own ignorance holds them back

The current situation can only look good to people who are so blinded by ideology they see Brexit not as a foreign or economic policy but as a jihad

Was reading the following thread and a thread response on the geometric nature of the logistics problem.

As just one example, there aren't enough fork lift drivers, the majority of whom who went home to the EU, which means that the (too few) HGV drivers are spending hours more waiting in line at distribution centres to unload - meaning they go over their time limits (even with UK relaxations).

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Churchill was concerned about a bipolar world dominated by just two rival superpowers - the USA and the USSR - and in particular about how those superpowers would treat/use/exploit other countries in pursuing their rivalry with one another. (And if we look at how the cold war played out in the decades that followed, we can see that his concern was justified.)

His preference was for a multipolar world where other world powers would include (a) the UK and Empire/Commonwealth, plus (b) the "United States of Europe". The USE was not to take its lead from the UK, and he didn't envisage the UK taking its lead from the US, either. The whole point was that economic and military resources should be dispersed among several powers that would act independently, co-operating where it was to their mutual advantage, but none of them subordinate to any other, and none large enough to secure, or imagine that it could secure, global dominance.

His reason for wanting the UK to remain out of the USE was not any antipathy towards Europe or the idea of European Union, but simply that he thought that, with its Empire, the UK was capable of being a world power in its own right, and if so it was better for the world that it should be.

This stuff is going to rapidly get out of hand. It's a simple chain reaction. Eventually EU ports will have to reject UK bound freight as it will just choke them like the UK ports are choked. Shipping companies on the other continents will then start refusing to take containers and indeed bulk cargo bound for the UK on their ships at all. That would be catastrophic for the UK. Things like staple foodstuffs might genuinely become scarce and can you imagine the panic buying if Canadian wheat starts to have trouble getting through and bread can't be baked.

I think the tide is certainly beginning to change. Opinion pools seem to be suggesting that move people see Brexit as going badly, politicians are not even trying to say that Brexit is an advantage, they are simply trying to argue that not everything is entirely Brexit fault.

Even Question Time, which has been for quite a while a hotbed of Brexit support, is quiet on any benefits of Brexit. (anecdotal at best I know but the lack of any support is telling IMO)

Or, do people think that the EU will welcome them back with open arms ?

They won't find it easy to rejoin the club, management and membership won't forget too quick, and won't want a disruptive disorderly post brexit Britain back in too quickly I think.

Much of their relationship with Europe for the last 80 years has been guided by the events of 1939-45. Having a huge superiority complex towards 'the continent' as they either defeated or liberated its countries, and yet unable to acknowledge that the War itself was a disastrous event for Britain and left it very seriously weakened on the world stage (and even in Europe).