The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

NIMAN · 01-10-2021 11:15pm

I said before that since Mica was being talked about in 2014, it was shocking that blocks were still allowed to come out of the affected quarry until 2020. But over that periodi, Mica was a Donegal issue, and no-one in the rest of the country had heard about it.

But considering this is now a well known, controversial, national issue, good luck to the Government is its discovered in the next 5 or 10 yrs that new homes and buildings are affected by defective blocks and they didn't have a testing regime in place.

But I wouldn't be surprised. As the Mica Action Group spokesman said on PT last night, its Donegal and Mayo now, but this is coming to many more counties in the coming years.

01-10-2021 11:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965268#Comment_117965268

Which engineers found this?

01-10-2021 11:46pm

Politicians and council officials who have never worked on a building site did not come up with the idea to replace the outer blocks only. Who is the engineer that said this was a viable solution for 5000+ houses?

How are the 5000+ affected homeowners being kept up to date with all these recent developments and how is the decision being made by them on whether to accept or reject this proposal or is it up to each individual homeowner/couple to decide if they will accept it and there is no consensus required?

NIMAN · 01-10-2021 11:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965880#Comment_117965880

You might be surprised.

You see for many homeowners, cracks were only seen on the outside leaf of the house, as it was caused by wet blocks freezing and thawing. Interior blocks didn't look like they were affected.

So you can see why many folk thought that replacing this would solve the problem. I know quite a few myself who have done this at their own expense. And you can probably see why Council engineers thought this might fix the problem too.

And the sad thing about it is, many of the homeowners got replacement blocks from the same manufacturer, and have probably just replaced bad blocks with new bad blocks, which might take 5 or 10 yrs to show any weakness, if that Claire Bryne Radio report is anything to go by, with blocks being made in August 2020 showing high levels of Mica.

I hate to say it again, but you couldn't make this up. I really hope this Euro Court class action case works, cos this Government is a joke at this stage, and if the civil servants are scared of the €3.25bn cost, they may get prepared cos its going to be a multiple of that by the time all this is fixed.

jj880 · 02-10-2021 12:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965816#Comment_117965816

Its in the audio clip linked above. Engineer speaking in the clip is called Ambrose McCloskey. He is the main engineer trying to get the IS 465 legislation fixed so home owners dont use defective blocks twice and rebuild their homes on top of defective foundations.

02-10-2021 12:10am

RTE have a good article that highlights other issues with the blocks https://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/2021/1001/1250245-mica-redress-working-group-analysis/

doc22 · 02-10-2021 1:52am

The homeowner paying for demolishment is a cute tactic, if that was paid by redress everyone would want the rebuild.

NIMAN · 02-10-2021 2:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966044#Comment_117966044

The only thing affected homeowners are looking for is a safe home for them to live in.

If the government are willing to stand over outer leaf replacement only, then many will accept that option, as full demolition isn't something you accept lightly. Outer leaf would be a big upheaval in your life for maybe 4 or 6 weeks, but full demolition will see you out of your home for at least 12 months.

But they need to know that if, in 15 or 20yrs the wall starts to fail again, or their inner leaf or foundations start to fail, then they can get redress again.

doc22 · 02-10-2021 2:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966051#Comment_117966051

I think the department's position is to keep you in your home(20 years sounds good to them) and not guarantee it as an asset forever ....

GSBellew · 02-10-2021 4:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961613#Comment_117961613

Prior to discovering Mica it was in which band?

GSBellew · 02-10-2021 4:32am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962771#Comment_117962771

So you admit to wanting the tax payer to pay more than its going to be worth?

Sounds like someone made a bad investment, a real bad one if its always going to be worth a lot less than the build price, when you consider the value includes the land. Not a great argument for getting 100% out of everyone else plus a property tax exemption I see.....

It must also be remembered that you are getting a complete new structure, including parts that wear with age, putting you in a better position than you would have been without Mica. The rest of us will be replacing roofs etc on our houses while paying for these overpriced homes, my sympathy reduces the more I hear.

Someone on this thread likened it to car insurance, well a written off car gets you market value, that should be the barometer.

GSBellew · 02-10-2021 4:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117961975#Comment_117961975

Before this clearly you were paying the top value?

NIMAN · 02-10-2021 4:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966097#Comment_117966097

No, its just that resale value, and the current market value of houses in Donegal (mica or no mica), is nowhere near the price it would cost to rebuild them. Its the simple rule about insuring your house. What do you quote when getting your house insurance renewed? Do you quote what it would sell for, or what it would take to rebuild it? Because they are 2 completely different things. And can be massively different.

Going by current industry costings, I think my house would be 350k to rebuild. Even if it was brand new, A rated etc it would never sell for that. Not even close. Simply due to location etc. I'd say that currently the vast majority of houses in the country would be worth less than the rebuild cost, nothing to do with 'bad investments' as you put it. Also remember that many homes in rural Ireland are built on family owned land, and rarely would that house ever be resold, so resale value is often not an issue.

So "wanting the tax payer to pay more than its going to be worth" is unfortunately a basic fact. Not something the affected homeowners are to blame for. Perhaps blame the cost of labour, materials, Gov taxes, VAT, planning fees, price of services etc. All out of their control.

Anyway, not much point arguing more over this. Its obvious some people on here are 100% against the affected families. They don't want 'their tax money' being spent on them, despite the fact that we don't control what our Gov spends our money on, you just have to suck it up if you don't like it. There are plenty of things I don't think should get massive amounts of taxpayers money, but its spent anyway and nothing much I can do about it. The fact that the Government is already committing to a redress scheme for all homeowners shows they have decided that something has to be done despite what the keyboard begrudgers are saying.

GSBellew · 02-10-2021 5:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966103#Comment_117966103

Not against anyone as you put it, however I will question why you consider I should "suck it up" if I don't like it while at the same time complaining that enough is not being offered? Should you not also have to "suck it up"?

NIMAN · 02-10-2021 5:14am

The "suck it up" comment wasn't meant to be offensive, I was basically pointing out that citizens have to suck it up if they don't agree with what their taxes are spent on.

You can of course cast your vote and try to remove the politicians at the next GE, but the ones who replace them will also spend your money against your wishes too, so it'll never please you. So you, and me, just have to suck it up.

As for me having to suck it up wrt the redress, to be honest I would accept the current deal thats being offered, but not sure if people will be able to proceed and accept that whilst the redress campaigners as a group are still negotiating with the Government. I think the current deal would suit many, but not all. Its a difficult one.

Penfailed · 02-10-2021 8:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966091#Comment_117966091

I wasn't paying it. My house was worthless. In order to get onto the scheme I had to back pay it all plus a late payment fee.

muffler · 02-10-2021 11:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966099#Comment_117966099

This isnt a court of law so lets put the personal questioning to the one side. Cheers.

02-10-2021 12:03pm

In Dublin I hear quite a few people are getting €1,300 per month through the HAP scheme to pay rent on apartments owned by funds or multimillionaire professional landlords. It might be more if they qualify for various other schemes. I think the HAP scheme costs about €800m per year.

I'm absolutely with these families getting their houses rebuilt as they are ordinary decent people who worked hard and need help to get out of this mess.

I just ask that there are rock solid cost controls in place and that blocks being used to build houses now are fit for purpose. If there is a cap on costs per sq meter on each house it is in the home owners interest to keep costs down so price gouging by the construction industry will only happen to the extent that the individual homeowners are willing to bear it themselves and not the taxpayer. There are a lot of Irish working in construction abroad that might come back if there was work for them which will help with keeping labour costs manageable.

Basically I am supporting 100% redress with fair caps as that is the society we all choose to live in and it works.

Penfailed · 02-10-2021 4:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966786#Comment_117966786

Fair play to you 👍

firemansam4 · 03-10-2021 11:25am

So on this site and also other social media I do see some opposition to this scheme and to any potential 100% redress.

People here have complained about having to pay out of their own taxes for this scheme.

But one thing I have been thinking about which has not really been mentioned much, is what the actual cost is when you take out all taxes, indirect or direct. Taxes for the houses that were built and taxes for whats going to be built to replace them.

In this link CIF claims that for a 250000 euro house, 100000 of that went to direct and indirect taxes.

https://cif.ie/2017/07/12/withdrawal-help-buy-scheme-will-exacerbate-irelands-housing-crisis/

Now if thats true then lets say Joe Bloggs who built his house for 250000, now has mica and needs it demolished and rebuilt again under the scheme.

He has already paid 100000 in direct and indirect taxes, lets say the new house will cost 350000 to build then the taxes on that may be about 130000 or so roughly.

So then 350000 - 230000 in direct and indirect taxes means that Joe Bloggs is actually costing the state 120000 euro.

And thats not taking into consideration the employment that will also be created because of it.

Maybe I am way out with this, but its something not being mentioned much at all when we talk about the cost to the state for this scheme.

03-10-2021 12:36pm

The first mic assessment should be a core taken from the foundation. If mica is present in the foundation, then the house should come down and be rebuilt from scratch.

03-10-2021 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970304#Comment_117970304

Absolutely. Though I'd have to add that I can't see the logic in replacing the outer wall, only. Both walls are built from the same blocks, therefore if mica is present in the outer wall, it is equally present in the inner wall. The only difference that I can see is exposure to the elements.

Having said that, we live in a damp climate, so it seems logical to me to theorise that damage to the inner wall is merely delayed by lack of the same exposure to the elements.

So, what happens if an outer leaf is removed for rebuilding, and the inner leaf is then exposed to the elements? Does it inevitably follow that the inner wall is also going to disintegrate in a few years?

And are the Government ever actually going to ensure those organisations who are at fault bear some financial accountability for this mess, or is that just more lipservice?

I should add that first priority must be given to full redress for the affected homeowners - but I would definitely like to see some accountability from those responsible for the mess in the first place.

03-10-2021 5:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970503#Comment_117970503

As far as I understand, and maybe Im wrong, the sequence is the take a core from one wall first and test it (€800). If mica is present then they test the other walls @ €800 each, then they test the foundation, also €800. If they tested the foundation first then they would know for certain that the house would have to come down, and €3,200 would be saved on the wall tests.

NIMAN · 03-10-2021 8:01pm

It was this initial cost of getting your house tested that many people could not afford, and as a result the number of entrants into the scheme was low.

I heard average cost to get tests was around the €7000 mark. Not many people have that lying around just to get on the scheme. And the worst thing is, many of the houses you can tell are affected just by looking, you don't need samples sent to a lab in England for multiple tests to tell you the house is fecked.

Also, there was reports a couple of months back that the councils were going to start subsidising these tests, and that it would cost the homeowners only €400 to get tests done. But don't see any progress on this.

And isn't it time the State got their own lab set up asap, rather than relying on English labs to do our testing?

03-10-2021 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971974#Comment_117971974

Absolutely. This problem isn't going away, no matter how hard the Government try to either ignore it (for years), put obstacles like test fees in the way of actually getting on the redress scheme, or pay lip service to 100% redress, while trying their hardest to find a way out of it.

Its beyond a joke at this stage, and I'm very inclined to wonder whether they realize just how much public support 100% redress has, and that, it absolutely will be remembered by thousands on the ballot paper.

Right now, the whole thing smacks of a government refusing to help people, and paying lip service, at best, to the idea of accountability from those who are responsible.

Apparently, they're much more amenable to the idea of making victims pay...

NIMAN · 03-10-2021 9:16pm

I think that is harsh on the government a little.

Yes they have dragged their feet a fair bit, but I think in the last few months they have shown that they are serious about getting this issue fixed. Or at least they are saying the right things anyway.

Its the senior civil servants who are apparently against 100% redress, not the politicians. Politicians are crafty, they want to be seen to be doing the right thing, as they know they could suffer at the ballot box if they don't. The logic for them might be, sure whats another 3bn on the public debt over 20yrs.

And recently the scheme is more or less 350k with additional costs for storage, rent etc while your home is being fixed. That wasn't in the original scheme, so they are trying to make it more acceptable.

doc22 · 03-10-2021 11:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972265#Comment_117972265

In fairness, It's the civil servants who will be managing the mess long after the government makes the decision and loses power. Its going to be coming out of their budgets into the future and locks them into spending.

03-10-2021 11:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972265#Comment_117972265

I hope you're right, I really do - but I tend to be suspicious of politicians in general, and comments from Leo, along the lines of " protecting the taxpayer" (which may, or may not, be reasonable, depending on what exactly he means by that), and comments by Michael Martin promising an "enhancement" of the scheme, leave me concerned.

If it were my house affected by mica, I'd be fighting outer leaf only replacement tooth and nail.

I just can't see how the inner leaf isn't also going to be affected, even if it takes longer. Which is just kicking the can further down the road, as opposed to willingness to fix the problem, once and for all.

Meanwhile, I hear talk of making banks, insurers, etc take some financial responsibility - which I actually agree with - but I haven't heard of any concrete steps being taken to ensure this happens, nor have I heard of any extra testing, or supervision of, the quarries where these blocks were produced.

So, I'm left wondering, why not?

Now, I haven't been keeping track lately, since I've had some family bereavements, so, I might have missed something relevant, but, if not, I won't be rushing to take what politicians say - irrespective of which political party they belong to - at face value.

I want to see concrete action, and written guarantees - not just "promises" - because promises, and statements are not worth anything, and we've seen that time and again.

I do hope you're right, though - I'm just very cynical about politics in general.

GSBellew · 04-10-2021 12:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966703#Comment_117966703

It's a fair question, you can't claim it's worth €70k when it suits & look for half a million later on, fairs fair, earlier in this thread the tax take in Donegal is stated to be the lowest in the country, counter argument was that the income is also the lowest, yet now we are hearing that the houses cost more to build than the rest of the country, doesn't add up.

NIMAN · 04-10-2021 2:08am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972874#Comment_117972874

The rebuild cost is the rebuild cost, its not like we are inflating it in Donegal.

If you go to any building contractor, you can get a quote for building a house per sq ft/sq metre. Then do the maths after that and thats where the rebuild costs are coming from. Rebuild a 2000sq ft house in Donegal, Wexford, Dublin or Limerick, and the prices will all be similar. We aren't fudging any figures up here.

But as I mentioned before, just because it will cost 300k to rebuild a house doesn't automatically mean that its resale value is 300k. Houses in Donegal are cheaper to buy due to its location, lack of infrastructure, lack of jobs etc, so there isn't a mad rush of people from all over the country looking to buy a 300k house here. If the 2000sq ft house was in Kildare or Meath or Louth, yes it might well sell for 300k.

As for the tax take being lower here, thats a different argument completely. You should try living up here without your regular buses, your Luas, your railways, your motorways, your public leisure centres etc. We are starved of infrastructure and services. But thats for another day ...........

The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

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