Night of the Big Wind

"hurricanes came without warning for most of human history"...... Was it a hurricane though?

I have a book with accounts of this storm from all over the country, and no part was left untouched. This was not your average run of the mill winter storm as has been suggested.

An essential book for anyone who is interesting in getting to know this storm better:

The Night of the Big Wind by Carr, Peter: Very Good Paperback (1993) | WorldofBooks (abebooks.co.uk)

"By all accounts, it was a hurricane given the detailed accounts of those who went through it even if it didn't satisfy the conditions for a tropical hurricane. By this measure it is only playing with words"

It's not playing with words though and you contradicted yourself in one sentence by firstly stating that it was definitely a hurricane but ended the sentence stating that it may not have met the criteria to be classified as a hurricane.

"Hurricane" is a word used to describe a particular type of storm with very specific characteristics and which meets certain criteria. Whilst the storm in question 'may' have met some or all the criteria to allow it to have been deemed a hurricane in terms of wind speeds, unless it had the characteristics of a hurricane, it was not a hurricane. More likely an extremely strong Atlantic storm or possibly a post topical storm. I don't know the full details to this storm though.

There's no play on words though however you seem to have a play on definitions in order to try win your case.

Very off-topic, but an interesting piece of info...the pensions act of1908 introduced an old age pension for people over 70.

As many Irish people had not been registered at birth, one method used to check their age was to ask what they remembered of the night of the big wind.

It was an extremely strong winter baroclinic storm, not a tropical cyclone. Distinctions like that are important in meteorology, as too many people still believe that Ireland has received hurricanes in the more recent past (Debbie (1961), Charley (1986), Ophelia, (2017), none of which met the criteria of a hurricane on reaching Ireland). Of course, to someone on the ground, wind is wind and it mattered not what the makeup of the storm was, not that anyone really knew the difference back then.

I must get that book. Oneiric's mentioned it several times in the past.

This was definitely a deeper Atlantic low than we have seen in recent years according to pressure records from land stations, as detailed in an earlier Met Eireann account of the storm linked here ...

A wikipedia article gives a central pressure of 918 mbs which is consistent with these land obs (in the 920s to low 930s) although not backed up with a reference.

As most readers of these threads will know, another factor in the causation of strong winds is the rate of pressure fall. We could assume that this low was explosively developing off the northwest coast of Ireland around 6 to 9 p.m. on Jan 6, 1839. Having looked through a number of other accounts of the storm (one from Belfast mentioned catastrophic damage even in east Ulster by midnight), it is pretty clear that the damage was very widespread in northern and central counties of Ireland generally speaking. This was certainly a much stronger storm than any we have seen in recent years, the only faint comparison one might make would be to the Feb 1903 storm that did considerable damage in the south (its track was through Ireland rather than off the north coast). Also the storm could be compared in general terms to the "Defoe" storm of Nov (o.s.) 1703 which in today's calendar would be dated Dec 7-8 overnight. There were speculations that the Defoe storm could have been an extratropical remnant given that it arrived from the southwest. There is no way of knowing whether the 1839 storm had any history as a subtropical low perhaps forming between Bermuda and the Azores, but it is fairly well established that no tropical storms hit that late in the season on those two island groups, and in fact never did so in January in the pre-satellite era. Tropical storms or hurricanes are almost unknown in January in the North Atlantic, there have been perhaps four instances of them and one was an oddball southward moving hurricane in the tropical Atlantic.

Another storm to which this might be compared in synoptic terms would be the Columbus Day hurricane (remnants of mid-Pacific hurricane Freda, not a typhoon but a Hawaiian island family hurricane) -- although its central pressure was never below 950 mbs its rapid development near the coast led to a massive blowdown of large trees (Oct 12, 1962). The hilly terrain probably saved many human built structures from more severe damage as the hurricane force gusts were mainly on exposed coasts and on hilltops. Also the Great Lakes superstorm of Jan 25-26 1978 has some synoptic similarities as did the Nov 9 1913 "Great White Hurricane" as it was then called (although not a hurricane, an inland explosive development low) which caused 100 mph wind gusts to sweep across Lake Huron resulting in a large death toll among late season lakes shipping caught in this unpredicted storm. (the low responsible moved north from Georgia to near western Lake Ontario).

I should conclude by reminding readers that we had a thread about this storm, which is probably now buried several dozens of pages back in the archives, and there was no hint of any comparison of the storm to more recent ones here by Boards weather forum members.

I would imagine we're dealing with a classic stingjet event, with all the holes in the cheese lining up just perfectly.

If that storm felled hundreds of mature leafless deciduous trees imagine what a similar storm could do to today’s conifer plantations.

Also, the modern house may be able to stand up to such a storm but the country is full of farm buildings that may be at risk. Could still add up to significant economic damage.

That's a presumption that all folks knew how to build a home to withstand Atlantic storms, it's a logical assumption however. The fact remains that there was no building regulations. People who live in modern day shanty towns for example know that rain leaks through the roof, that wind destroys, but they often lack the funding to prevent damage and there is nothing preventing them from building how they like. Safe or unsafe. In Ireland much of the population lived in a poverty like state, we also must remember that the building were not all built in the 1830s.

Knowing an issue and having the means to prep for those conditions are different things.

Compare this to modern Ireland where building codes across the country are some of the strictest globally.

Loss of life and damage to property are social indicators of the impact, the severity of a storm should not rely on property damage or loss of life regardless of the span of time between two events.

Events should be classified by meteorological measurements and also separately as damage to society.

I'm pretty sure, as simple and primitive as the people, as is implied by some the comments on here, were back in 1839, I'm sure they would have built homes that they knew would have withstood the brute force of Atlantic winters.. to the best of their ability at least. These people were far closer to nature than we could ever hope to be.

Again not my intention to diminish any society. It’s more so comparing historical events with a modern lens.

Building materials of today are far superior to those of the past, typically lighter, stronger, flexible, flame retardant, insulated ect. Builders of the past were unquestionably skilled with the materials they had.

200 years from now I’m sure building materials and standards will be far superior today, they will most likely fair better against hurricanes, storms flooding ect.

This can be said without without diminishing any contributions. Builders of the past paved (pardon the pun) the way for modern builders.

Like I said, record both human impact and actual recordings

I think the Met E account probably under-rates the 1839 storm relative to more recent ones for this reason -- they compared the overall wind gradient from the northern tip of the country to the southern tip, but in my conjecture, there was likely quite a deep secondary just off the Mayo coast which cannot be detected from the data available, therefore the gradient as the storm hit the west coast was almost the same over that two thirds of the total distance, as Met E estimated for the whole country (and probably accurately but by then the strongest gradients had begun to fill in). So in fact if the storm compared to a modern storm with a pressure differential over 2/3 of the distance, then it would have been 3/2 as strong or 50% stronger. That might be a bit high, let's say 30 to 40 per cent more likely. But a significant difference nonetheless.

There would be no hope of proving this secondary deep low idea, unless any actual pressure readings could be found, but as the wind speeds were clearly quite a bit stronger than the 1988 storm, I think it's a safe bet that Belmullet's pressure may have dropped well below what the study might lead one to believe (which would be 950 mbs perhaps) -- it may have been closer to 935 mbs there. This deepening must have been quite explosive to get the incredibly fast forward motion of the wind speed maximum which looks like it went from around 9 p.m. in Westport to a little before midnight in Belfast (about 11 p.m. in Dublin). We normally see 4-6 hour progressions of wind max with the tamer storms of modern times.

I'm sure a satellite image of that 1839 storm would be a very dramatic reverse-C with bands hitting the west coast around a stark centre in Donegal Bay.

Had a look at the CET temperatures in this sequence; evidently the low occluded very rapidly over Britain because the mean reported on the 7th was only 4.2, equal to the previous day. There was no sustained warm advection, and the temperatures then fell off to subzero briefly before a milder system pushed temperatures up to around 8 C on the 11th.

So in summary I would say the maps in the paper by Met E are probably fairly accurate but six hours earlier than the first map, a more complex structure with a secondary near the Mayo coast would perhaps have been the actual cause of the extreme winds.

One thing that stands out is that the people years ago would put us all to shame with the high standard of their handwriting. I can't remember the last time I wrote something like that by hand. A declining skill.

I recall that many of the big events in the 90s more often than not were rapidly followed by potent secondaries that were poorly forecast, and which had the effect of prolonging the storms with barely a lull in-between.

Re-reading some of the accounts of the 1839 storm, lightning and aurora were seen during the height of the storm, which not only would have added to the ominous nature of the event, but also suggests that the strongest winds occurred in a post cold/newly formed occluded frontal air mass.

Back in those days no doubt the 500 mb heights were a bit lower than we see nowadays in winter storm situations, that low might have been stacked under something like a 484 dm low at 500 mb and since subtropical heights were probably within 1 dm of today, the gradient wind would have been quite fierce. The winter of 1838-39 was not particularly cold for those decades, but the previous winter had some record cold weather in January (1838).

If this happened nowadays, I would imagine there would be serious damage to infrastructure on a scale not seen in modern times. As to how modern houses might fare, possibly a bit better, but there would be numerous roof removals even if not quite the scale of total collapse, and so many trees down causing havoc. It's clear that a storm surge came up the Shannon estuary from the Limerick reports, and the extent of the storm surge around Galway must have been far beyond what we've seen recently.

There was a very deep low also in Dec 1886 that is not that well publicized but probably ranks in the top three or four storms to hit Ireland in recent centuries. A pressure of 927 mbs was taken in east Ulster, and the main damage zone was north Leinster and across into Lancashire. That storm is more accurately depicted on historical weather maps, the 1839 storm in the NASA archives (wetterzentrale) is pathetically underdone for no obvious reason since there were reliable pressures in the 920s in northern Scotland.

My truppence worth -- today's snowflakes need something to whinge about,including Met Eirinn.No reason to allow events of the 1830's to diminish their paranoia.We can only wonder how people survived weather events in the 1400-1800's or prior.Written accounts are scarce.Snowflakes avn't a clue

Some accounts of the weather (UK specific) in the year leading up to 1839 and 1839 itself. An obviously cold period in weather history, which once again demonstrates that Ireland and the UK are subject more extreme events when the climate profile is in a cooler state:

1838 (February) THE 'BUDE BREAKWATER' GALE

1. On the evening of the 24th February, 1838, a southerly gale developed (" more violent than for years "), this veering west-southwesterly through the night and coincided with a high tide in the early hours of the 25th. The inside slope of the Bude Breakwater (built to protect the harbour/canal entrance between 1820 and 1822) gave way (?scouring / over-topping?), with three-quarters of the structure giving way. [ Apparently the mortar had been weakened by a severe frost in the winter; however, the structure was also deemed to have had too steep a slope, and the replacement breakwater was of much better construction, and has survived many a gale to this day/2003.] damage also occurred to sea structures all along the south coast of England, including the Plymouth breakwater. 12 1838 (late Summer / Autumn) Following a severe winter/early spring of 1838 over Scotland [ see above ], the crops were already delayed, and were then damaged in the ground by frost in August, with the cold, frosty weather continuing through September & October. A large proportion of the crop was lost, with much hardship for rural tenants. x 1838 Cold year: fog on 11 days in September (London/South). Snow showers on the 13th October (?London/South?). 

8 January 1839 "The Night of the 'Big Wind'": this is the most notorious of all storms to affect Ireland (also affected other parts of the British Isles - see later). An unusually deep depression (one of the deepest ever recorded so close to the British Isles) travelling in a north-east direction to the north of Ireland was responsible for gusts widely 75-90 knots, and in excess of 100 knots in a few places; Lamb says there is 'evidence of whirlwind / tornado activity'. At least 90 people were killed across Ireland & surrounding waters, though the death toll was surprisingly low, allowing for the lack of warning. There was considerable damage to buildings, shipping and crops right across the island. Around 20-25% of houses in Dublin experienced some form of damage, though some was minor (broken windows). Several tens of thousands of trees were uprooted. The aforementioned storm also affected other parts of the British Isles, particularly western & northern parts of Britain. The newly-built Menai Bridge was severely damaged. In Liverpool & in the adjacent waters of the Irish Sea, much damage ensued - building damage ashore, and loss of vessels & lives afloat. Deaths in the Liverpool area, both on land & at sea is stated to be around 115, with many-a-breach of local sea walls, and the death total across the entire British Isles may have been in excess of 400. (Remember that coastal shipping was of great importance in these days before the railway network reached all corners of the Kingdom - also Ireland was then an integral part of the United Kingdom). 6, 23 1839 May Showers of snow, sleet and hail on the 14th & 15th May. 

1839 (Summer, Autumn & early Winter) A wet summer (148% of LTA 1916-1950) across England & Wales. Specifically, July 1839 was in the 'top-10' of wettest such-named months in the EWP series.

Over the longer period from June to November 1839, using the EWP series, the RAINFALL %age was around 150% averaged over the England & Wales domain, and probably close to twice-average across southern England. 1, EWP 1839 (Annual) A wet year and a wet summer (in London).

A cold year for Scotland. Specifically for agricultural areas of NE Scotland (though not exclusively so - just that this is the area I have data), the following are noted:

> March: a severe snowstorm, with much drifting - loss of life.

> May: about the middle of that month, there was a heavy fall of snow with much drifting.

> September: Severe flooding after heavy rainfall. Damage / destruction of bridges in the area.

Over England & Wales, the period June 1839 to January 1840 was notably wet (including the wet summer - see above); the cumulative anomaly for this period was 140%.

In December, FOG 1st to 7th December (London/South).

Sourced from here: Weather in History 1800 to 1849 AD (weatherweb.net)

I was under the impression that the current ice age began in the late 1400's and will progress for up to 15,000 years leaving an area north of Galway/Dublin line under ice.The northern hemisphere will see the ice cap covering a lot of Northern Europe.I don't plan on being around that long.