Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

What can be done about mass shootings in America?

Options
135678

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan



    Americans talk a lot of big talk but when required to back it up they cave. Their water gets polluted, their pensions get plundered, their tax dollars get dished out to the 1% while the country's infrastructure makes Bangladesh look like Dubai. Their Constitutional rights are stripped away, their privacy is violated at every turn, their kids' health and education are gutted. They can't muster a fightback over these things and they wouldn't if their guns were restricted or outlawed either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    Then they should be kept locked at the gun club not leaning against the back stoop for anyone to have a go blasting beer cans during a fcuking barbecue.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan


    There is ZERO reason for needing a gun for self-defence. Why can't all these paranoid knob-heads, who are constantly on high-alert lest somebody break into their house and try to steal their tupperware, just have a taser or a bean-bag shotgun?





  • Registered Users Posts: 2,807 ✭✭✭ShatterAlan




  • Registered Users Posts: 397 ✭✭KurtBarlow


    The best thing you can do is to stay away from the kip



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Do you honestly think that would work ,what happens when the people breaking are carrying semi/full auto pistols or rifles ,

    Bean bags wont save you ,

    We have fairly restricted fire arms policy here and getting worse for no real reason ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,673 ✭✭✭Feisar


    Well the bould US of A would disagree with you there. I’ve no dog in that particular argument however that is the law there. As regards tools for self defence nothing beats a firearm. That’s just a fact one cannot get away from. Now, may I ask, if people with evil intent enter your home do you want the best option or the second best option?

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Could I not make the same argument out of people who are endangering the whole planet by their running ridiculously fuel-and-rubber consuming vehicles around a race track and thus contributing to climate change?

    Firearms are a tool. They can be used for evil. Acknowledging this without equally acknowledging their positive utility (even outside of recreation) is dishonest.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    I would surmise so, the "explosion" in mental health issues over recent decades has been met with a pill for this, pill for that response. These chemicals/pills/drugs are not natural. It's no surprise that when the chemical makeup of the brain is altered across a large pool of the populace that cases of mis-prescribed chemicals/drugs/pills have a very undesired outcome.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,673 ✭✭✭Feisar


    :)

    First they came for the socialists...



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    You could, but thats just saying 'what about'. Its ok for me to take up crack, because like ...what about the alcohol industry...and stuff...

    Indeed firearms are tools, not toys, which is where gun fetishists have lost their connection with reality.

    The negatives are presently outweighing the positives for poor old usa from what I can see.



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Well, how do you measure the negatives vs the positives? What are your criteria?

    That's before one gets to "How does one get to change the neg/pos balance, in practice?". I fully agree it can be improved. I suspect we differ on methods and measurement, though.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    Firearm homicide stats (certain models) might be a start, for the negative side of things.

    The positives might be measured in whoops and yee-haws.

    How many yee-haws to 1 cinema goers life, thats the question.

    And thats where it becomes personal opinion. I think America probably has a lower acceptable exchange rate than most.

    And that rate is no doubt brought down by the gun fetishists.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I have been training using guns with my preteen daugther. And I have trained in martial arts. And I have trained in knife combat. And I have trained in using a fighting staff. And even trained some sword combat.

    If I was defending my house from people running at it across the field - I would want a gun. Hands down absolutely.

    But for actual home defence like the kind that keeps coming up in conversations with my american peers on the subject of gun ownership - I think a gun is the last thing I would want to have. Bringing it to bear in a closed space on a low reaction time? Meh. Why do we all think we are john wick :)

    Give me a long knife I can hold on the back hand up the length of my forearm any day. If I woke up hearing someone moving around downstairs breaking into my house - a firearm is the last thing I would be looking for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,639 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    It's funny how, when this topic arises, it's always about mental health, medication, stress...it's never about the guns themselves.

    If your kid is spraying the neighbour's wall with paint, or setting fires in abandoned buildings, or self-harming by cutting their wrists, you remove their access to paint or matches or sharp objects first, and look for the reasons later.

    But somehow that never applies to guns.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    because immediate harm situations are maybe different to a society wide reality - or something - maybe?

    But actually on an off topic note - disarming the tool in an actual short term situation like that is not actually the best approach. My recent experiences with "problem" kids in my locality anecdotally informs me of this. You can not disarm kids of their fists or their violent energy - Even if you took a knife or spray can out of their hands - how do you disarm someone who has nothing in their hands but is equally intent on harm?

    In fact sometimes the absolute worst thing you can do in some situations is to "go for" the only weapon a lost person feels they have. Because when you go for it and try to take it off them - you are going for "everything" They have in that moment.

    I think as a dad if I found my kid spraying a wall - or trying to light a fire - or trying to cut into their own flesh with a blade - I would start by addressing and undermining their narrative in that moment. Because everything _ they _ are in that moment is focused on one focal point - and I think if you focus on it too you are making your own grave.

    Or do put it in the immortal words of the insane religionist Mel Gibson "Do you REALLY wanna jump - Do you wanna????"

    youtube.com/watch?v=BOP6uMTYaM8&ab_channel=atomica79

    But seriously its all contextual. There is a time and a moment to whip the razor out of someone's hand. But I don't think america and guns is either.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,503 ✭✭✭✭Mad_maxx


    The likes of Canada, Switzerland and Norway also have very high gun ownership.


    The problem in America is the lack of rigorous vetting when it comes to the customer


    It shouldn’t take that much reform to fix the problem buy unfortunately the reactionaries are listened to

    Post edited by Mad_maxx on


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    As someone who has put a gun in the hands of a child - my conversations with americans always feel very very different. In the hands of a child it always becomes about what this tool can do - how you use it - how you respect it - how you can hurt yourself with it. When I talk to my american peeps about guns though it quickly stops being about the gun. It very quickly starts being about all kinds of narratives like home defence in a crisis. And the more I talk to them about guns - the less it becomes about guns. The gun very quickly becomes the focal point about their fears or their own inadequacies. And half of the people I know who own a gun in america probably have zero idea how to actually use it when it comes down to it in a normal situation - let alone an actual "home invasion" :)

    I think personally I would be very into the idea of gun care and gun use being a part of an early curriculum of the national school education. Oooo look at me being all right wing when Im meant to be a bleeding heart liberal leftie :)



  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    How does one take such an argument seriously? Last week the FBI announced that private citizens lawfully killed more people than police did last year, for example. The debate on the number of "defensive gun uses" per year is long running, but even the most conservative numbers are in six figures. The last set of government numbers, granted old, is in the millions. The CDC sponsored study after Sandy Hook observed that those who defend themselves with a firearm are less likely to suffer injury than those who use any other defensive technique.

    You may choose to weight these benefits differently, or choose other criteria, but at least they are genuine arguments. Commenting about "whoops and yee-haws" indicates you don't care about a serious discussion on the merits and refuse to accept that there even is a balance to be considered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    And none of those defensive, lawful killings required 20 rounds of a military caliber.

    I see you trying to obfuscate and gradually move the focus from the kind of range toys I was talking about, to all firearms.

    The 'fun' associated with making near military grade firearms available unfortunately has a tragic downside.

    The trade off for playing soldier as a man-child is that you make it easier for Aurora cinema or pulse nightclub to happen.

    You could defend yourself with something slow loading, with low capacity, and slow to fire. And you could hunt with that too.

    But they're no good for fantasy play ... as a grown adult.



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,413 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    And none of those defensive, lawful killings required 20 rounds of a military caliber.

    Are you sure about that?

    For example, from this summer's SoCal federal court decision in a magazine capacity case. Obviously such cases exist.


    I, personally, unlike (say) police or spree shooters, do not routinely keep spare magazines easily to hand. I suspect that most lawful firearms owners are similarly situated. What's in the gun is what I have. The idea that one 'only' needs a certain amount of ammunition for lawful use is unfounded in any rational basis.

    Why would one wish to distinguish a 'military calibre' from a 'non-military calibre'? I mean, sure, 10mm was used only by police (Exception: Denmark's military issued it to an arctic unit to defend against polar bears) and 9mm was developed for the military, which one is more acceptable for civilian use in your mind and why?



  • Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 12,770 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    The USA is a country and a society in probable terminal decline, as others opined here the problems are more cultural and extremely deep- seated - a dog eat dog mentality, inability or unwillingness for critical thinking, and a culture that worships money, material goods and pure greed. Throw in systemic racism, fundamentalist loony Christianity and a sharply divided political system as well...

    This has led to a deeply divided, deeply unequal society combined with rampant drug abuse (both legal and illegal) and the precious 2nd Amendment and mass gun ownership and you have the perfect environment for mass shootings and an upward trend in these events. America is now so far removed from its glory days of the post WW2 era and it shows in every measure of its well being.

    Basically the USA is f***ed in the long-term and the mass shootings are a potent symptom of a nation in terminal decline that has only itself to blame for its failures.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    Such cases exist as extreme rarities.

    A large magazine arguably helped save the day for someone. Then again lets look to the numerous spree killings. A large capacity magazine helped ruin the day for many people. (cinema, campus, nightclub or wherever).

    When mentioning calibers it was pointing to the fact that needlessly powerful calibers are made available in combination with needlessly large magazines. Such weapon designs in a civilian hands just point to the truth that people aren't buying these weapons for the 'hunting' or burglar defense they bullsht about. They're buying accessories for their man-child fantasies.

    Some even buy tanks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @85603 And none of those defensive, lawful killings required 20 rounds of a military caliber.

    Define a military calibre .

    You can own tanks in Ireland too



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    @Gatling A round primarily designed for use by the military.

    Why would you own a tank?

    Is it for hunting and home protection? Or is it because you never got over the boyhood phase of thinking big guns are cool? Is it because you think devices specifically designed for the purpose of causing death are actually toys or accessories for infantile fantasy. And do you think it would be wise to prioritize such cosplay recreation when designing a national govt policy.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Ironically the military use of dum-dum, hollow point and other such expanding bullets is a war crime, banned since the Hague Convention 1899.



  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Absolutely nothing wrong with owning a tank and yes it's absolutely fun ,they also have a historical value ,

    Every round from .22 to 7.62 and bigger have been used in both civilian uses to military uses you wouldn't use 5.56/223 for deer or similar animals in hunting to light and not as effective over ranges ,so you go with 308 which Is the civilian/commercial 7.62 round , as it stands alot of militaries are looking to move away from 5.56 as it's been proven less than effective compared to larger rounds , plenty of people in Afghanistan and Iraq have survived been hit by several rounds of 5.56 ,as I said earlier different tools for different Jobs ,

    I've seen several .50 target rifles here for long distance shooting competitions ,you certainly wouldn't looking at 5.56 for shooting past 5/600 metres in any scenario ,

    Recently came across a armoured APC parked beside a school ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    I agree, there is nothing wrong with owning a tank or APC (well not with a functional weapon). I'm sure that is great fun, and I encourage it.

    But please don't tell me, or others, that you own the tank for the protection of your family. Just come out of the closet and say the real reason.

    Everyone can see anyway. You're not fooling anyone other than yourself. Liberace.

    You bought the ""tank"" so that you could imagine being a tank commander and play out your man-child fantasies. (that or maybe as an investment)

    Same with 50 cal, you didn't buy it for hunting.

    Gun nuts obfuscate and lie because they know the real reason for owning outlandish weapons is trivial and petty, based around embarrassing childishness. And that we shouldn't be basing policies, important policies which can have the most serious consequences, on such trivial flimsy preferences.

    (and thats in reference to certain models of weapon only, before anyone tries confounding such range toys with actual practical firearms which are necessities in certain contexts).



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,554 ✭✭✭Quantum Erasure


    hoplophobes

    Hoplophobia (from Greek hoplo, meaning "weapon") is the fear of weapons

    I thought we weren't calling them 'weapons' nowadays...



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    @85603

    and thats in reference to certain models of weapon only, before anyone tries confounding such range toys with actual practical firearms which are necessities in certain contexts.


    Range toys and practical firearms are one in the same there is no difference what's so ever .

    I certainly wouldn't be arsed with the utter rigamarole you have to go though here just to use a particular gun and a particular number of rounds to sit in a range every now and again ,

    We've some of the most prohibitive firearms restrictions here and yet many people do for both Hunting or paper sheets on a range even after the government publicly screwed gun owners many times here ,



Advertisement