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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,076 ✭✭✭✭Furze99


    Politicians are lining up to have their ears burnt this winter by their electorate. It's all very well imposing carbon taxes on top of price hikes and then muttering about raising fuel allowances. That leaves the usual suspects to carry the burden - the ordinary workers supporting the state, paying their way and their taxes, not eligible for fuel or social welfare increases. There's going to be a lot of pretty pissed off voters.

    As for the Greens, their biggest fans here must be SIMI. Ching, ching - churn the market and get everyone buying new vehicles. Green policies led directly to the switch towards diesel passenger cars and now EVs. The only hitch with the EV is that you'll likely have to buy a home generator running on petrol/ diesel in order to charge it in coming winters.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Not really, it is only affluence which has allowed meat to become an everyday staple, its unnatural to the way we lived. There is a world of difference between the old fashioned extensive farming and the intensive meat and dairy of today. Every pound of meat we produce in intensive farms could produce 10 pounds of veg which would feed more people than the meat. I have lived as a vegetarian for 30years and I am probably healthier than most meat eaters I know. But I advocate people cut down their meat consumpton to more traditional levels, in the region of 10% of their overall diet. That would take us a long way along the path to sustainability in farming.



  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭BobHopeless




  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Meat eating has been around for a couple of million years and cooked meat nearly one million so not sure why you imagine it to be unnatural. It was the calories, nutrients and ease of digestion that brought it into our diet.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You completely ignored what I said there. Our parents and their parents ate much less meat than we do now and they were healthier for it.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    My point has been that our policy is to provide nationally 70% of our needs through the national grid by way of green energy. Far as I can see other than doing so using wind energy there really isn`t any other source being given much, if indeed ny, consideration. When the wind drops it will not be just a case of each household individually making up this 70% shortfall using solar panels. With shortfall there will be blackouts so that 70% shortfall will then become 100% shortfall for individual houses.

    On your house in Athlone I`m not saying you are wrong, but the figures I provided as to the area of solar panels require to provide both 100% energy and 70% for the average Irish household of 4,200 Kw per annum are based on the figure for ! sq meter of solar panel producing 150 watts on a sunny summers day, were provided by Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, and the area required does appear to be at variance with your figure.



  • Registered Users Posts: 493 ✭✭BobHopeless




  • Registered Users Posts: 16,543 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    GP were rejected in the constituency I live in, you're dreaming if you think these parties are populour outside the well off urban areas.

    Rural voters and people in less well off urban areas hate them



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,528 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    If people are angry about green policies now ....

    I’m sorry to break the news to you all

    unfortunately the climate situation is absolutely dire and this is not going away



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    Dublin Central?

    At the end of the day they are a small party in the Government. Anyone thinking they are making all these decision without approval from FF & FG are fooling themselves

    All the main political parties including the opposition ones supported the Paris Agreement which meant these changes would have to be made yet we have people crying on here about the Greens and South County Dublin.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,543 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Of course the population needs to be reduced, they are breeding like rabbits in Africa and India and that isn't going to stop anytime soon.

    Many species of animals will disappear there over the next few decades when people cut down the forests and grasslands these animals live in.

    You won't hear that little loudmouth Thunberg anything about that though when she is shouting the house down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    No, I just challenged your claim of it being unnatural and life expectancy rates suggests this claim is untrue as well - it was 72 here in 1980 and had little changed in the previous twenty years. If you mean they had fewer lifestyle issues like obesity I'd agree but that's an outcome of our own far more sedentary and junk-filled lifestyles.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    And therein lies a lot of the problem with green energy. The mixed messaging. You are saying you are exporting energy to the grid and the last poster I replied to says his example would not provide for all the energy needs even during Summer. Both cannot be correct.

    I gave you the area of solar panels required for the average Irish household for both 100% and 70% of their daily energy needs in Winters based on a sq. meter of solar panel output according to the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland. Are you saying my figures are wrong, SEAI is wrong, or that both are wrong because there does appear to be a rather large variance between the area of solar panelling required of your figure and mine ?



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Sure but it's their single target approach that people have issues with. The solutions will ultimately be massively multi-faceted, something the Greens are not good at.



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,543 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    This is the second time someone mentioned the Paris Agreement in a post of mine which I said nothing about at all and for the second time I'll say I never suggested that FF/FG didn't also sign up to it.

    The reason the Greens won't ever be popular is they want to stop many of the things rural folk see as a way of life like turf cutting and beef production.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    What you find with solar depends on if you are home or not. People with solar have invested in battery plus eddi and if a electric car a zappi. All to use excess electricity before sending to grid because they are not getting paid for it. Then the excess goes to the grid.

    What it does mean is the base load for the house is gone so during the day so that power can be used for offices etc. If you removed 100k houses off the grid during the day it would have an affect, if you move 500k houses off the grid during the daty etc

    That is before you look at excess.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    So you have no problem with China or any other country burning whatever they can get their hands on to provide cheap energy thus giving them a competitive market edge up until they reach the same level of per Capita emissions as we do. Good to know.

    Do you expect them to have a sudden road to Damascus moment at that point ?

    If anyone needs to grow up and smell the coffee it`s someone who believes that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭Shoog


    They are building more sustainable capacity than practically any country in the world, they are doing as much or more than most advanced countries. They are the primary manufacturer of all of the solar PV in the world as are they the largest manufacturer of Lithium technology batteries - all contributing towards lowering everyones carbon footprint. They aint the bad guys but I am really not sure about the like of yourself.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,469 ✭✭✭MAULBROOK




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,431 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    you can't think of anything more natural than agriculture? what a strange thing.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,036 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    My problem with green policies is not that they are costly or difficult but that they are irrational and illogical.

    They want ev transport and ultra efficient electric heat pump homes and they want to end fossil fuel power plants simultaneously.

    So they want to make people totally dependant on the grid while simultaneously making the grid unreliable.

    As pointed out above, there still seems to be no incentive for homeowners to even sell their solar energy back to the grid. My parents for example simply heat water with theirs because that's the economic model that makes most sense to them.

    They have a solution to the energy grid problem and energy security and emissions for the past 30 years but they refuse to include nuclear power in their policies.

    So they give us no solutions and in fact weaken transport and energy security and ignore real solutions due to political cost.

    They are not a serious "green" party. Riding bikes and building windmills isn't a viable solution in the modern industrial world. And talking about it ironically just a distraction from actual climate action.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    This is the problem I see on boards, people seem to have half a story and think firing it out is the answer. In this day and age how many people see turf cutting as a way of life? the reality is that it's a tiny percentage and it was on the decline. I do admit we seem to have got it wrong with the policy now of importing turf, not sure why that is a good plan.

    I don't see the Greens hitting beef production, what they have asked for is more organic farms and more vegetables/fruits etc. Then again the market is moving in that direction so Irish farmers should be ahead of it.

    If the Greens didn't get into the last government we would still have to meet the Paris agreement terms, so who would you blame then when these changes are implemented? At least with the Greens in government you know they actually have an idea. That is why people reference the Paris agreement,.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,076 ✭✭✭✭charlie14


    China represents more than 25% of all global carbon emissions, with 18% of global population. If you believe that our carbon footprint in Ireland is somehow taking advantage of China on an individual basis, then aren`t the Chinese doing similar to others. ?

    58% of their energy consumption is provided by coal burning plants.They are now proposing to build additional new coal plants that would provide 73.5 gigawatts of power as opposed to the rest of the world`s 13.9 gigawatts. They are also under their Belt and Road Initiative building hundreds of coal fired plants around the world.

    Do not fool yourself where China is concerned. They see an economic and political advantage from cheap energy in a post Covid world and are going for it while countries like ourselves ramp up our energy costs. The are not doing too badly out of the green energy agenda either while doing so, being the chief suppliers of solar panels and batteries.

    Congrats by the way, you really just hit the nail on the head when it comes to how most people view zealots. It`s either their way unquestioningly or you are the bad guy. Not a great attitude for making friends, let alone influencing people.

    Post edited by charlie14 on


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Nuclear is not a solution:

    "Cheap dreams, expensive realities

    In the dawn of the nuclear era, cost was expected to be one of the technology's advantages, not one of its drawbacks. The first chairman of the Atomic Energy Commission, Lewis Strauss, predicted in a 1954 speech that nuclear power would someday make electricity “too cheap to meter.”

    A half century later, we have learned that nuclear power is, instead, too expensive to finance.

    The first generation of nuclear power plants proved so costly to build that half of them were abandoned during construction. Those that were completed saw huge cost overruns, which were passed on to utility customers in the form of rate increases. By 1985, Forbes had labeled U.S. nuclear power "the largest managerial disaster in business history.”

    The industry has failed to prove that things will be different this time around: soaring, uncertain costs continue to plague nuclear power in the 21st century. Between 2002 and 2008, for example, cost estimates for new nuclear plant construction rose from between $2 billion and $4 billion per unit to $9 billion per unit, according to a 2009 UCS report, while experience with new construction in Europe has seen costs continue to soar."

    ............

    If we want to reduce the climate impact of electric power generation in the United States, there are less costly and risky ways to do it than expanding nuclear power. A 2011 UCS analysis of new nuclear projects in Florida and Georgia shows that the power provided by the new plants would be (more expensive per kilowatt than several

    alternatives)[https://www.ucsusa.org/nuclear_power/nuclear-power-and-our-energy-choices/nuclear-power-costs/nuclear-power-projects-risky.html], including energy efficiency measures, renewable energy sources such as Biomass and wind, and new natural gas plants."

    https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/nuclear-power-cost


    it is to expensive and no where near as reliable as its advocates claim. We would need at least 3 and probably four nuclear power plants for reliable supply all year round - other wise half of the grid could drop off at the drop of a hat. Estimates for new build plants in the UK are running at over £15 billion per plant meaning Ireland would need to find £45 billion to build the dream of Irish Nuclear. There is also the not inconsiderable hurdle that Uranium is a finite resource and increasing demand is pushing prices up for the raw fuel.


    Meanwhile the very achievable "Spirit of Ireland" project could make us net exporters of wind electricity and the pumped storage capitol of Europe with the ability to buy in excess cheap overproduction of sustainables and sell it back at peak times for profit. Even if we were to allow for the sort of cost overruns typically experienced by nuclear we could build multiple Spirit of Ireland projects for the cost of a viable nuclear fleet and have a far more reliable grid to boot. This is the sort of visionary project which actually makes sustainable energy a reliable future for our energy needs.


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_of_Ireland

    Nuclear for Ireland is a pipe dream and if you are advocating for Nuclear in Ireland you are referencing dishonest sources.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    But you're definitely in favour of nuclear as a replacement for fossil fules? After all, you have a planet to save and no time to waste.


    If you're not it would suggest that you're motivated by the same irrational relgious zealotry of the Eamonns of the world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    Nuclear fusion will eventually be the replacement for everything but it's still a very long way away.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,435 ✭✭✭beachhead


    Never knew that.If grandma or pa or mammy and daddy ate less meat its because they didn't have the money to buy it every day.When I was young mammy gave me and siblings meat nearly every day as well as any of our friends sitting with us.We are all healthy now-not dead



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,938 ✭✭✭Shoog


    You obviously didn't read a word I wrote. Nuclear cannot save the planet because its to slow and to expensive and doesn't actually save as much carbon as the equivalent wind/solar.



  • Registered Users Posts: 25,310 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    It’s not, but in 20 years spiraling population, not enough Gardai, nowhere to build homes, house prices through the roof , many of the ones that do get built will be given to new arrivals...our population is over 5 million at present and projected to grow quickly to around 6 million according to the government.

    services stretched and not enough people paying for them. So that those who DO pay for them end up being taxed more.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 451 ✭✭MBE220d


    I see the likes of Brid Smith and Boy Barrett are very concerned about the rising gas prices, these are the clown that was front and centre to getting gas and oil exploration banned off our coasts, someone would want to remind them what happens when you depend on other for supply, no control on price or supply.

    Having these populist clowns is not only stupid but dangerous to the people that they are supposed to represent.



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