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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Let’s calm down and try and get into the others shoes.

    I understand that those living in roi are very happy with the protocol and see no reason for it to change. So I can understand that you don’t want people agitating for change to it.

    can you understand that unionists do not want rules and checks on goods moving within our nation?

    do you understand that we do not want people who we cannot vote for making rules and holding court over us?

    Is there anywhere else in the world that either of the above two points happen - never mind both? Therefore is it ridiculous to say I want changes to bring the 1.8 million people in NI into line with the other 7.7 billion people on this planet? Unless of course you can show me another place in the world where this is happening? It’s clearly untenable and is, when, not if, changes will be made



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,753 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Is there anywhere else in the world where a political class would actively endorse an action the majority didnt want and then whinge when that action has an effect they were warned about?



  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭Speedline


    Are the house of Lords elected? Is Queen Elizabeth elected? Both of those had a say in the protocol.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    I understand that those living in roi are very happy with the protocol and see no reason for it to change. So I can understand that you don’t want people agitating for change to it.

    The protocol is ensuring that the physical border between ROI and NI wasn't brought back against the will of the people on this island.

    The majority of people in NI didn't want Brexit and voted against it despite the disgusting actions of some anti-GFA unionists. Brexit was imposed on the people of NI but thankfully the EU negotiators looked after the best interests of the people of NI, not their DUP representatives and not their government.

    You've been told all this several times but your selective memory seems to have forgotten it yet again!

    You've even said that the protocol is working so is this yet another u-turn by @downcow?

    can you understand that unionists do not want rules and checks on goods moving within our nation?

    do you understand that we do not want people who we cannot vote for making rules and holding court over us?

    Why did the DUP follow a path that led to this?

    Why did the British government, your government, negotiate this as a solution and then declare it as a success?

    Why do you (and unionist politicians) now oppose checks on goods travelling within the UK when checks were completely justified and welcomed in the past?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    Interesting comment by Brandon Lewis on the negotiations----

    "It’s often forgot there has been some form of phytosanitary checks, the SPS checks people talk about, between Great Britain and Northern Ireland because of the single epidemiological unit of the island for a very, very long time.”

    “So some form of structure around that isn’t going to change. What we need to do is resolve these issues that are currently there with the protocol"

    This following Joe's rebuke, failure to trigger article 16 and Bojo saying 'Fix it or Ditch it' makes me think there is a softening of the stance and 'Fix it' could mean some form of 'Implement it'



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Apparently there was rules and checks of goods moving within the UK prior to brexit. There was checks of some agri goods crossing the Irish Sea. Did anyone care about that prior to brexit.


    The richest country in the world Norway is also not in the EU and can't vote on EU matters but still follows single market rules.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Let’s not go off thread again, but now you are taking us back to 1690. We are a constitutional monarchy



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow



    Absolutely there needs to be protocols. And absolutely there needs to be checks. We all know that. We just need common sense



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭Speedline


    Queen Elizabeth in 1690? She's getting on a bit, but I didn't think she was that old.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭ittakestwo




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Absolutely. And if her subjects can convince her to negotiate an fee amendments to it, I guess you say that was acceptable?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am curious. Is there any posters who think that it is not appropriate for ni unionists to democratically seek changes to the protocol?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,753 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Good to see you are finally laying the responsibilities where they belong, your queen and government.

    Let me warn you, they will shaft you again when they are selfishly satisfied. Bookmark this post.



  • Registered Users Posts: 537 ✭✭✭Speedline


    Fire away. But complain to your own government about it. They agreed to it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    It's not appropriate for anyone to seek changes to the protocol. It might be appropriate to seek changes to the type of Brexit that's causing the problem though



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Thats bullshit and is rubbished by this account in The Irish Times (which is a very interesting read since the information came from research by historians).

    "When Ireland met Scotland in the Five Nations championship in February of 1954, the match was held at Ravenhill. It was a politically fraught period. The Flags and Emblems Bill was up for debate at Stormont, legislation that, if passed, would have outlawed the flying of the Tricolour in the North. The nationalist Mid-Tyrone MP Liam Kelly had been recently jailed for a making a speech deemed seditious. And the behaviour of the British army in Kenya, whose members were allegedly acting upon the motivation of a "shilling for a kill", drew some unflattering comparisons in the Irish newspapers to the Black and Tans campaign during the War of Independence."

    https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/queen-s-song-still-strikes-a-delicate-chord-1.1195886

    I read a similar account from the son of the Captain on the day, Jimmy McCarthy on BBC website. He added that his father, who had played for Munster, Ireland and the Lions, was never capped again which will tell you how annoyed the IRFU were over what happened. Seemingly Dev had intervened to get them to stand for the anthem. Its a myth about them staying in the dressing room to pray for Pope Pius (which is what the Ulster Ireland players thought they were doing when negotiations were going on about the anthem, which they did stand for).

    By the way, not playing games in Belfast was all down to financials. It cost the IRFU £3,000 to play in Belfast because of the size of the ground. Lansdowne Rd had been upgraded (spending £100,000 on the upgrade) and because of its size, that is why all internationals were played in Lansdowne Rd after that.

    Ulster ran the IRFU up to recently. Most of the players from the national team came from there and Leinster. Getting selected for the national team was more down to class than religion back in those days.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Identity had nothing got to do with why Ireland wanted independence. We just didn't like being treated the way that we were by the British - dumb cannon fodder. There is a really good documentary on the RTE player at the moment about the Famine (175th Anniversary) and when you see how Britain governed Ireland, you will learn an awfull lot as to why Ireland wanted independence and be able to control its own destiny.

    This is part 1, there is another part next week. By the way, this is your history as well. You fared just as badly in Ulster as elsewhere in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    I don't know about there being a lack of diversity on the Ulster team. Plenty of South Sea Islanders over the years. When Simon Zebo was racially abused in Ravenhill, the person who racially abused him was identified by the crowd and the person got a life ban. What happened there was really impressive - there was zero tolerance for racism not only by the club, but by the crowd at the game.

    As for diversity - seriously, there is no way you'd match the GAA at the moment. There are a few at inter-county level, but at grass roots level, there are plenty as well as plenty of people from the LGBT community the high profile involvement in both GAA and rugby.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    is it ridiculous to say I want changes to bring the 1.8 million people in NI into line

    Neither you nor any unionist speaks for 1.8m people in the northeast of Ireland. Over half those 1.8m don't want anything to do with the Tory/DUP Brexit. Nobody in Ireland except unionists want disruption where the British border was in our country.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,650 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    That depends on the changes they seek, obviously. It's not appropriate to seek changes which would tend to lead to a hard land border. If you're pursuing a dangerous and divisive policy, you don't get a pass on criticism or opposition just because you are pursing it democratically.

    Would the changes they seek tend to lead to a hard border? On one level, that's impossible to say, since they refuse to specify the changes they seek. On another level, they persistently raise fears that they would, since (a) they themselves largely backed hard brexit, which is the problem; (b) they themselves oppposed other proposed solutions which would have avoided a land border; (c) they align themselves with Johnson and Frost, whose bad faith on this question is palpable; and (c) they have never, at any point, taking the obvious course for someone who dislikes the protocol but also wants to avoid a hard border, which is to point out that hard brexit is the problem here, and to press for soft brexit.

    All in all, it's difficult to avoid the view that unionists are in the camp of those for whom hard brexit is a greater priority than peace in Ireland. Is it appropriate for unionists to democratically seek changes to the protocol for that purpose? No, absolutely not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow



    tell me honestly and fairly succinctly what you mean by a hard border and why a hard border on the island is not appropriate?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,650 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Seriously? Back to this again?

    "No hard border" was one of the first red lines announced by the UK, at a time when it had next to no idea about what else it wanted out of Brexit. It turned out to be a red line for the EU as well, which you would think should make agreement easy.

    What it meant was fleshed out by agreement between the UK and the EU in the joint report of December 2017 and, lookit, if unionists think that at this stage the Brexit process can be unpicked all the way back to December 2017 then why not go the whole hog, unpick it all the way back to June 2016, and rerun the referendum?

    So, take the Joint Report as a given. It says that:

    • The UK is committed to "the avoidance of a hard border, including any physical infrastructure or related checks and controls". So, no border infrastructure; no checks or controls on trade, commerce or travel over the border. (Which is to say, no checks or controls that arise out of the fact that the trade/commerce/travel is cross-border; obviously the check and controls that would be applied to trade, etc not crossing the border can also be applied to trade etc that crosses the border.)

    You can stop there if you like; that is basically what "no hard border" means; no physical infrastructure at or related to the border; no checks or controls on the movement of goods, services, people arising out of the fact that they are crossing the border. And that's the answer to the question you asked.

    But it's worth going a bit further, to see what the UK and the EU agreed about how a hard border was to be avoided, and about what this meant for the wider UK/EU relationship.

    • "Both Parties recognise the need to respect the provisions of the 1998 Agreement regarding the constitutional status of Northern Ireland and the principle of consent." The UK courts have of course ruled that the NI Protocol is consistent with the GFA and does not affect the constitutional status of NI which the GFA protects, so particular box is ticked.
    • "The United Kingdom respects . . . Ireland's place in the Internal Market and the Customs Union". Thus, border infrastructure and related checks and control will not be avoided by measures which jeopardise or detract from Ireland's place in the Single Market/Customs Union. The ideas that a few lunatic Tories still float of Ireland leaving the SM and joining the UK's internal market, or of SM controls being applied to trade between Ireland and the mainland, were ruled out.
    • These commitments [i.e. no infrastructure, checks, controls] "are made and must be upheld in all circumstances, irrespective of the nature of any future agreement between the European Union and United Kingdom. Any future arrangements must be compatible with these overarching requirements." (Emphasis added by me.) So, the no infrastructure, checks, controls commitment set firm parameters within which the Withdrawal Agreement and the TCA had to be negotiated and concluded. Any changes to, or replacement for, the NIP would likewise have to be compatible with those commitments.

    Having explained (a) the content and (b) the signficance of the no-hard-border commitment, the Joint Report went on to flish out how it would be delivered:

    But it's worth going a bit further, to see what the UK and the EU agreed about how a hard border was to be avoided, and about what this meant for the wider UK/EU relationship.

    "The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting and supporting continued North-South and East-West cooperation across the full range of political, economic, security, societal and agricultural contexts and frameworks of cooperation . . . The United Kingdom remains committed to protecting North-South cooperation and to its guarantee of avoiding a hard border . . .The United Kingdom's intention is to achieve these objectives through the overall EU-UK relationship. Should this not be possible, the United Kingdom will propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland. In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation, the all-island economy and the protection of the 1998 Agreement."

    This is worth unpacking a bit. It provides a three-tiered approach to delivering on the no-hard-border commitment:

    • First, the UK intends to avoid a hard border "through the overall EU-UK relationship" - i.e. it aims for a Brexit soft enough that there'll be no hard border between the UK and the EU, so the question of a hard border between NI and IRL will never come up. Obviously, the UK didn't follow through on this; it went for a hard Brexit.
    • Secondly, failing that, the UK will propose island-of-Ireland specific solutions to avoid a hard border. The specific solution that the UK proposed became, of course, the NIP.
    • Thirdly, in the absence of agreed solutions, the UK will simply remain aligned with SM/CU rules to the extent necessary to avoid border infrastructure, checks or controls. That one never got tested, because there was an agreed solution. But, had the EU not agreed to the NI Protocol, this paragraph would have kicked in. And it needs to be read with the immediately following paragraph, which says more about what happens if there is no agreed solution:
    • "In the absence of agreed solutions . . .the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland."
    • So, if the UK hadn't reached agreement on the NIP or something similar, then (a) they would have needed to keep NI sufficiently closely aligned to the SM/CU to avoid any need for infrastructure, checks, control, and (b) they would have needed to extend much of that alignment to GB as well, unless the NI institutions agreed to separate treatment for NI. In other words, no hard Brexit for NI, and the NI institutions to have a veto over hard Brexit for GB.
    • But note that the "no new NI/GB barriers" commitment only applies "in the absence of agreed solutions". And there was no way the hard Brexiters in the Tory Party were going to allow their hard Brexit to be vetoed by the NI institutions. Hence, they were highly motivated to find an agreed solution with the EU. Hence, the NIP. And this still provides the parameters within which any changes to the NIP would have to be framed.
    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yes please let’s not go back over old ground, and especially not with essays.

    my questions were simple and clear and asked for a succinct answer.

    you answered the first one with a history lesson yet the question is in the present/future tense and you didn't answer the second question at all.

    try again and try to be succinct. Here is the questions again.

    “tell me honestly and fairly succinctly what you mean by a hard border and why a hard border on the island is not appropriate?”



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,286 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Fantastic post Peregrinus, can't wait for Downcow to pick out just one single sentence from it to complain about and ignore the rest of it.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,232 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ^^^ (downcow's post) - Jesus H! [shakes head in despair]

    Post edited by Seth Brundle on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,753 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Answer to the second one: We, as equal members of the EU will not be inconvenienced and burdened by the cost of a hard border on this island.

    You wanted to Brexit, you bear the pain and inconvenience.

    First one: Any hinderance on the island of Ireland to free movement of goods and people is not happening again.

    You wanted to Brexit, you bear the pain and inconvenience of a sea border, we intend to get on with being good Europeans.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,685 ✭✭✭ittakestwo


    Yeah like most here I would have preferred if brexit never happened. And if they can come to something that ment no border then great. But realistically these brexit negotiations went on for 3 years and the only solution to seem to stop a border was the Backstop which was not a goer for English nationalists.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,650 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    I answered your first question, as you requested, honestly and succinctly, with a single paragraph which for the benefit of slow readers I set out here again:

    "You can stop there if you like; that is basically what "no hard border" means; no physical infrastructure at or related to the border; no checks or controls on the movement of goods, services, people arising out of the fact that they are crossing the border. And that's the answer to the question you asked."

    As to your second question ("why is a hard border on the island not appropriate?") an honest and succinct answer would be " it's not appropriate for the all the reasons that have led the UK and the EU to agree consistently since the start of this process that it's not appropriate". Those reasons are well documented and have been exhaustively discussed. Because those reasons are many and various a succinct statement of them would be difficult, but it would probably run along the lines of "a hard border on the island of Ireland is not appropriate because it cuts away the foundation on which the GFA was constructed, and so imperils the GFA and threatens the peace settlement in Ireland". That's more or less what it says in the Joint Report which, to spare you the distress of being asked to read text that you may not consider sufficiently succinct, I won't quote.

    I would have thought that this was so well-understood and accepted by now that it shouldn't need repeating. If it wasn't transparently obviously true you'd think that somebody in the British government would have pointed that out, rather than signing the Joint Report. And anybody who asks about it could be met with the counter-question "tell me honestly and fairly succinctly why you think a hard border on the island is appropriate?"



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,415 ✭✭✭Suckler


    “tell me honestly and fairly succinctly what you mean by a hard border and why a hard border on the island is not appropriate?”

    You must be truly devoid of reality to ask that.



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