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Anti-British Xenophobia and Hatred in Ireland

18911131422

Comments

  • Posts: 5,518 [Deleted User]


    In England, there were nowhere near as many subsistence farmers dependent on the potato for starters.

    you also have to ask, if wiping out the Irish was the goal, how come so many were allowed to resettle in Britain? Surely if you want to wipe out an entire people, letting them move to your back yard isn’t a particularly good idea?

    and what of the people who exported food, who were they and why do they not get any criticism? Is it because their descendants are still here and it is much easier to point eastwards and declare “it was all their fault”?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Again why so many subsistance farmers - 600 years of colonial occupation and intentional policy. If the Eastern farmers were allowed to export during the famine why the hell wouldn't they. If they kept the food in Ireland without any supports from Westminster they would likely have gone bankrupt. It all comes back to context and the apologists here want to wash over that context.


    The English as a whole are not bad but they have two major faults:

    -their ruling class have tended to be viciously callous of their citizens wellbeing, with the further away from been English the more callous they become

    -the population as a whole are very ignorant of their own real history which allows them to go along with their ruling class even when it is against their own best interest and common decency



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    I thought discussing it was what we were doing. What does up for it mean?



  • Posts: 5,518 [Deleted User]


    Partly because of the system, partly because there had been a massive population increase, particularly in the cottier class. It was a situation that was already unsustainable and the potato blight ripped it over the edge.

    and the only reason for was exported was for profit. A lot of people made a shed load of money during the famine.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,123 ✭✭✭✭breezy1985


    There has to be consequences for utter stupidity otherwise people won't ever learn.

    Brexit affected my life negativity in very direct ways but I will still laugh my hole off at the nationalistic Brexit voting clowns get their comeuppance. Fell sorry for the other 48% though



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Go away out of that, the Irish breed like rabbits -> overpopulation as Bobby (I think) explained. As also pointed out, the Irish peasants relied on one crop. This was because they were handicapped by the twin evils of low intelligence in combination with a backward and ignorant culture unlike the English farmers. People don't like these hard truths so they try to blame the British rulers unfairly, contributing to the massive amount of "Anti Britsh Xenophobia and Hatred in Ireland" to this day. These rulers only ever tried to help the benighted natives of this land and bring them them railways, well fitting suits, flushing toilets, and common law and stuff. Thankfully despite the hatred stirred up by myths about the causes of the potato famine, some British still travel west and live here in the darkness to bring the sparks of civilisation and knowledge to us.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,203 ✭✭✭✭Strazdas


    Historians have come around to this point of view, yes. Westminster made a decision that it 'would be no bad thing' if the Irish population dropped by a couple of million. Not that they planned the famine, but it was seen as not entirely unwelcome.



  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    The blight did impact the Scottish highlands but as you can see the population at risk was 200K

    In the Scottish Highlands, in 1846, there was widespread failure of potato crops as a result of potato blight. Crops failed in about three-quarters of the crofting region, putting a population of about 200,000 at risk; the following winter was especially cold and snowy and the death rate rose significantly. The Free Church of Scotland, strong in the affected areas, was prompt in raising the alarm and in organising relief, being the only body actively doing so in late 1846 and early 1847; relief was given regardless of denomination. Additionally, the Free Church organised transport for over 3,000 men from the famine-struck regions to work on the Lowland railways. This both removed people who needed to be fed from the area and provided money for their families to buy food.[3]:




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Seldom have I read such overt racism against the Irish, again devoid totally of the context of colonialism.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    LOL blame people for being uneducated and poor while banning them from schools, and confiscating their land, banning their religion.

    It interesting when see this in the world today in modern conflicts some people/countries are oblivious to their history of doing almost the same thing in the past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    It was a parody of a "revisionist" view of the famine that appears to excuse British misrule and abuses in Ireland by pointing to overpopulation or dependence on a single crop as the main factors without looking at the context of colonialism as you put it. Yeah when I reread, I probably shouldn't have bothered hitting "Post" there (comment in haste, repent at leisure).



  • Posts: 5,518 [Deleted User]


    I believe the poster was throwing a tantrum and trying to be witty.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭indioblack




  • Posts: 5,518 [Deleted User]




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  • Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    I guess this is aimed at me. Ok I never said that overpopulation was what caused the famine, instead it was a factor in why it was so devastating.

    Here is site looking at agriculture in Ireland before the famine (from a professor at Cork University)

    https://www.wesleyjohnston.com/users/ireland/past/famine/agriculture_pre.html

    A few comments from this -

    About Connaught

    Between 1700 and the famine, Ireland's population increased rapidly. As land became more crowded, many farmers were forced to seek new lands for growing food on, and the only available areas were the scantly populated but poor lands of the Atlantic coast. Thousands of farmers settled in those areas, and there grew food mostly for subsistence, using the egalitarian 'Rundale' system of periodic land redistribution among the families. The land around the houses was used primarily for growing oats or potatoes while the higher ground was used for cattle grazing. The burgeoning population in these areas and lack of good soil prompted some ingenious solutions to problems, such as seaweed fertiliser and burning turf rather than wood or coal. It was soon discovered that potatoes thrived on seaweed and the potato soon became one of the main staple foods.

    On the potato

    By the early 1800s, the population had reached such a level (over 8 million by the start of the famine) that many of the farmers and farm labourers became almost wholly dependant on the potato. By the 1830s, 30% to 35% of Irish people depended on the potato as their main source of food. In conclusion, on the eve of the famine around a third of Irish people, concentrated in Munster and Connaught, depended on the potato almost exclusively. As it could not be stored or transported well, a new crop had to be grown each year.

    This was written in 1997 so it is hardly revisionist.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Its a perverse situation that the poorer you are the more children you need to wrestle a living from the land. The smaller your holding the higher your efficiency needs to be and that requires hard manual labour. Ask anyone who grew up in these conditions - many were treated as little more than indentured slaves to their fathers. The bigger your holding and the wealthier you become - the smaller your family becomes. Large families are a logical response to subsistence conditions.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,152 ✭✭✭Lewis_Benson


    Irish lads love expressing how much they hate British people.

    Yet the same hypocritical pricks will follow British premiership football, even referring to their team as "us" etc



    Love and let live, the past is the past.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,067 ✭✭✭Christy42


    I have seen little to this in day to day life. The UK government sure but not the people.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭tdf7187


    While much of its ruling class is obviously corrupt, venal and criminal, Britain retains a strong military and is our neighbouring island, and for those reasons alone it is not sensible to antagonise it (everyone knows that a trapped rat, or dying wasp, are at their most dangerous).

    But also, it's a country in decline, and while, strategically, we should be nice to the Brits. , we should simultaneously either take our own military defense seriously or cooperate with Germany on their plans for developing an EU army.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 9 deeznuts420


    OP IS A BRIT



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    Its not revisionist, its selective.

    We can only assume that lack of context is either through ignorance or deliberate selective quoting. From the same site.

    A problem of equal concern to Cromwell after the Civil War, however, was the fact that most of the soldiers in the Roundhead army still needed paid for their time served in the Civil War, but Parliament had no money to give them. So Cromwell decided to pay them in land. He forcibly moved thousands of Irish from their homes in Munster and Leinster and resettled them in counties Clare, Galway, Mayo and Roscommon. This was by far the poorest land in Ireland and, as well as this, they were not allowed to live within 3 miles of the coast. This strip, called the 'Mile Line' was given to Cromwell’s soldiers. In 1652 the newly cleared land in Munster and Leinster was given to Protestants in what was called the 'Cromwellian Settlement'. There was now no part of Ireland where Catholics owned more than ½ of the land. The main reason for this was Cromwell's belief in fundamental Protestantism and hatred of Catholicism. He claimed to be acting on God's behalf and expelled about 1000 Catholic priests from Ireland.

    The potato isn't native to Ireland. Its was introduced to Ireland by the gentry and landowners. They encouraged the tenants to eat it because it was cheap. All the alternative foods were exported.

    "..."as the indisputable fact that huge quantities of food were exported from Ireland to England throughout the period when the people of Ireland were dying of starvation".[110] While in addition to the maize imports, four times as much wheat was imported into Ireland at the height of the famine as exported, much of the imported wheat was used as livestock feed..."


    The Celtic grazing lands of ... Ireland had been used to pasture cows for centuries. The British colonised ... the Irish, transforming much of their countryside into an extended grazing land to raise cattle for a hungry consumer market at home ... The British taste for beef had a devastating impact on the impoverished and disenfranchised people of ... Ireland ... pushed off the best pasture land and forced to farm smaller plots of marginal land, the Irish turned to the potato, a crop that could be grown abundantly in less favorable soil. Eventually, cows took over much of Ireland, leaving the native population virtually dependent on the potato for survival


    Let the past be the past. But perhaps lets not rewrite the inconvenient bits.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,597 ✭✭✭tdf7187


    Nah, more like one of Eoghan Harris's numerous ID's on this board and others.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    People don't hate the British people they hate the British empire and forces. And to be honest I hate people that are into the forces. They're no different to supporters of the Nazis back in the day. The problem with the British is some of them haven't moved on or atoned for their crimes e.g this lad that shot an unarmed civilian with special needs in the back years ago.

    https://twitter.com/JohnnyMercerUK/status/1444226772824993797?s=19



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    The problem is the majority of other countries honour their fighting forces and achievements which doesn't seem the case with Ireland.

    Countries like France,Russia and the US for example have honoured British forces.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Shoog


    It would be considered in bad taste to honour a fighting force that was the vehicle of your oppression for 600 years. Don't think thats ever going to change.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭droidman123


    You think its a problem that ireland doesnt honour the british forces?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,933 ✭✭✭smurgen


    The UK establishment. They're rotten to the core. I feel sorry for the British themselves. I hope they get rid of the monarchy soon. Power to the people.


    https://twitter.com/PoliticsForAlI/status/1444035157711802381?s=19



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Not really,I'm used to Irish posters opinions of Britain and realised its not how the majority of the world see things.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,538 ✭✭✭droidman123




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,676 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    Might be something to do with the fact they were shooting us dead here in the Republic up until 100 years ago, and killing unarmed civilians in the North in the 1970s and 80s.


    Although considering a few years ago the Government were going to honour the treacherous scum in the RIC it wouldn't surprise me if they decide to do something like this in the near future.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,980 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Okay maybe shouldn't have used the "r" word. Another poster said "selective" since I last read this thread, and that's much better.

    bob mcbob I guess this is aimed at me. Ok I never said that overpopulation was what caused the famine, instead it was a factor in why it was so devastating.

    Partly. Putting the focus on the Irish "overpoulation" and "poverty" (you, from first post on it) dependence of Irish peasants on a single subsistence crop to survive (you & Aegir), or the greed of the upper-middle class "natives" in the society (Aegir) as reasons for "why the famine was so devastating in Ireland" devoid of reference to the wider context is very selective.

    If done deliberately, that does seem like it has some agenda behind it; to absolve rulers of Ireland at the time of some of their resposibility, either spread the blame or dilute it.

    Another poster (Shoog) said "Its difficult to convey just how offensive it is to even suggest that it was somehow the Irish's own fault.", now maybe you didn't mean it but both you (and Aegir's) comments on the famine get close to that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,365 ✭✭✭✭McMurphy


    Ireland does honour it's "fighting forces and achievements" though, you may have missed it, but we had a massive centenary celebration a few years ago.

    Are you subconsciously whinging Ireland doesn't honour British forces, is that it? How many other sovereign states in the western world honour it's historical oppressors?

    You just here for the lols, right?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭indioblack


    That's a lot of people - and therefore a lot of hatred required. Since it's not unreasonable to claim that the British empire effectively no longer exists, it seems a bit redundant to hate it. I wonder if this hatred is a matter of hating imperialism in principle or just one in particular. Probably the latter. If the hate was for imperialism, [imperialism, colonialism, the supplanting of one people or culture with another], that would encompass a lot of world history.

    You "hate the people that are into forces". That presumably means the British military, [which you also hate]. I think it's illogical to automatically idolize anyone in uniform. But to hate those that do requires, once again, a lot of hatred, [since there are probably a lot of people that think this way]. The comparison with those people and supporters of the Nazis is a bit daft.

    Some British people haven't moved on. I'd agree with that. Some Irish people haven't moved on either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,187 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The problem is that the British haven't actually moved on as a nation, they are still at the front of the queue whenever there is a colonial battle to be fought (now in support of the new Imperial power America). The British have intimated that they would love to force the Irish out of the EU to create a new pact, and you know if they thought they still had the muscle, and they could get away with it, they would try to bring that about. They are the same as they ever were - just to weak to be the biggest bully on the block any more.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,078 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    I don't know, the Nazi comparison isn't far off. The Nazis are notable for aggressive unilateral military invasion, oppression based on ethnic and religious grounds and genocide. The British empire is also notable for these things.

    The Nazis I suppose were more intense in a shorter period and more efficient but their ideology wasn't much different from British monarchists. A sense of righteousness in their domination of others based on their "superior" heredity, religion and culture.

    Again this is old news as old Britannia is somewhere at the bottom of the ocean at this stage. And there is a caveat that it's not fair to judge history based on modern moral standards, if we did we would have the throw the french, Spanish, Portuguese, Belgians etc all in the same nazi pot.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    Manchester United - American owned team.

    Liverpool - American owned team.

    City - Arab owned team

    Chelsea - Russian owned team

    Arsenal - American owned team

    Spurs are the only English owned “big” team in the PL and they don’t have a huge Irish following.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997




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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭indioblack




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,943 ✭✭✭indioblack


    You're correct to state that comparisons can be made - but there were differences also.

    Nazi Germany's destructive actions in WW2 reached such an intensity that there was effectively little left except ideology. The Third Reich had to be overpowered by a 

    coalition of nations until there was hardly any German territory under German control. Then there was surrender. Until that point was reached their actions continued.

    Britain's empire wasn't contiguous, it was spread over the globe - and over time. It changed over time. There was always a thin thread of unease and opposition to imperialism and imperial expansion from within.

    It had the ability to change. Usually forced change, usually unwillingly. 

    Overall I think your post was a good reply to mine.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Criticism of its government, military and history aside, I don't see any justification whatsoever for anti English comments towards individuals just because they are English. It's sh1tty, bigoted behaviour, and hypocritical when we enjoy so much that has come from that country. A multicultural country that is home to millions of immigrants, many of whom are of Irish descent.



  • Posts: 5,518 [Deleted User]


    so what you are saying is that the Famine had lots of contributing factors and none should be looked at in isolation and generally if it is, it is done so to deliberately misinterpret the causes for political reasons?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,831 ✭✭✭RobMc59


    Compare Ireland with other countries which apparently have axes to grind with the UK.Kenya,India,Australia and many many others are members of the Commonwealth and are more than happy to ally themselves in military pacts with the UK.No one else refuses to move on,or dredges up events from hundreds of years ago except Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,272 ✭✭✭hawley


    During the 5th and 7th Century AD, Scotland was invaded by Gaels, who originated from Ireland. This is where the name Scotland derives from. These Irish were called the Scoti. 

    https://medium.com/@NellRose1/who-invaded-scotland-ireland-and-wales-in-history-40f8b910c183

    Hopefully Micheal Martin will issue an apology for this.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,710 ✭✭✭Badly Drunk Boy


    It was the lads up north who invaded so no need for an apology from the Republic...yet. 😉



  • Registered Users Posts: 832 ✭✭✭Butson


    This country would be outer Albania if it wasn't for the UK, particularly England.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997



    That's known as Scrapping the bottom of the barrel and still coming up empty.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,264 ✭✭✭Kaybaykwah


    Maybe more like Inner Iceland, substituting the C for an R, but with trees and an economy like Denmark’s.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,680 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    Unlikely.

    Irish Christian scholars excelled in the study of Latin and Greek learning and Christian theology. In the monastic culture that followed the Christianisation of Ireland, Latin and Greek learning was preserved in Ireland during the Early Middle Ages in contrast to elsewhere in Western Europe, where the Dark Ages followed the Fall of the Western Roman Empire.[48][49][page needed]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland#Late_antiquity_and_early_medieval_times



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