The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Wibbs · 03-10-2021 9:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972181#Comment_117972181

Oh no I fully understand in the cases like you mention and I have no issue with supporting the language especially for them. And I would contend the country does so to a great extent. Certainly officialdom does. However the simple fact is that Ireland is an English speaking nation, for both good and ill. That's just how the cookie crumbled as the Yanks would say.

Fishdoodle · 03-10-2021 9:06pm

I don’t think there is an exclusion policy imposed by any Gaelscoil. Generally it’s up to parents where they’d like to send their child to school and that’s not a bad thing. If they make an informed decision about how the personal needs of their child will best be met- well and good. Whatever statistical trends arise may provide a deeper insight into people’s biases, preferences, hopes-they’re human traits. No public school would hold itself up as exclusive. Every school will have advantages and disadvantages.

Certainly Gaelscoileanna have more emphasis on culture from language to GAA, Irish dancing, traditional music etc. That’s how they lay out their stall from Ballymun to Ballina. That’s a great thing. As what started as a grassroots organisation -it’s pretty successful.

For those who learn Irish it is encouraging at least that what language they acquire I s gaining reflection more prominently in public …even in small steps such as having the choice to use the language when dealing with a public service.

There were plenty of people bashing T na G (now TG4) when it launched -same old argument -waste of money/won’t last a few years… but it has proven successful.

You’ll always get polarised opinion about Irish but I imagine the majority of decent people who have a reasonable cultural perspective, -even non speakers are at least favourable towards it One’s past experience at school isn’t quite the same as today … I think socially we’re moving on.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 03-10-2021 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972204#Comment_117972204

I have never met a single person who has said otherwise. Again, this thread is about English speakers getting up in arms about hearing Irish, not the other way around.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-10-2021 9:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972216#Comment_117972216

I think you'll find most English speakers don't care, while Irish.sprakers care too much.

I said, on a similar thread some time ago, that Irish language enthusiasts cared me about the status of the language rather that the appeal or popular usage of it.

Cyclingtourist · 03-10-2021 9:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971978#Comment_117971978

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971127#Comment_117971127

"Anyway, unfortunately for English language Mono-linguists, it isn’t a matter of how much Irish is spoken in Ireland, it is the first official language of Ireland. Constitutionally."

This is a common line, that it being declared 'the first official language' denotes some special rights over English also an official language. The Constitution goes on to state that their use by the state can be regulated by law. So in theory the state could totally drop the use in its affairs of the so called 'first language' and do all business in English.

CGI_Livia_Soprano · 03-10-2021 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972224#Comment_117972224

Irish speakers care about Irish? Stop the presses.

03-10-2021 9:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969819#Comment_117969819

They have a point though imo (plus I don't think you really have a good laugh always!) There is a not insignificant self flagellating tendency among some Irish folk. I am not talking about criticism of negative aspects, e.g. too much drinking or the church having such a grip until relatively recently. I am not a fan of rabid nationalism either.

I am talking about this type of thread - an aggressive hostility regarding the Irish language. I would be surprised if there was a similar situation in Wales or Scotland.

I'm talking about the absurdity of phrases like "only in Ireland" and "typical Irish" strewn about by Irish people in relation to what could be found in any society. The way they refer to the Irish as "paddies". Such an inferiority complex (or perversely can come across as the opposite - as though they consider themselves superior to other Irish people). The more extreme ones talk about how we would be better off under the British, and pretend the conflict in the North was entirely republican orchestrated. It's perplexing and quite toxic. How could people be so ashamed of their own heritage? Much as they think they are somehow not part of it, they are. Those whom they tug their forelocks to just see them as Irish.

A colleague of mine is British Indian and he notices similar among some of his relatives - how they claim the British empire was so great for the Indian people (forgetting about the auld mass killings and brutality). Seems to be a colonialism hangover.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 03-10-2021 9:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972247#Comment_117972247

*more about

- apologies for the typo.

03-10-2021 9:50pm

As someone who came to school here just before secondary school, I learned irish. It was grand. I have no issue with Irish signs, or announcements or anything like that.

The kids in my family go to Irish schools and preschools, many kids from different nationalities are in their schools. It.doesn't matter to them if there are signs of announcements in irish!

Why would anyone actually care? They are in English too for the People that don't understand or won't engage.

Jim2007 · 03-10-2021 10:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

Now seriously, I be very interested in understanding why this upsets you so much, because you are not alone in this matter. From time to time I encounter it here in Switzerland as well, where we have four national languages, one of which is also dying out.

Most people are indifferent to the fact that information is being provided in other languages so long as it is not preventing them from going about their daily life. Any yet a few people get very excited about it even though there is no logical reason for it.

So perhaps you can explain your concerns about it?

Ten of Swords · 03-10-2021 10:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972130#Comment_117972130

@CGI_Livia_Soprano do not post in this thread again

astrofool · 03-10-2021 11:16pm

It's amazing the amount of zealotry that occurs with languages, imagine if historians or mathematicians went about promoting their subjects the same way.

ireallydontknow · 03-10-2021 11:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972293#Comment_117972293

Your characterisation of this thread as containing aggressive hostility to the language seems patently wrong to me and perhaps explains your misconception. The most vociferous critic here has expressed his pride in Irish culture and that the language itself doesn't offend him. The issue is the way in which it is politicised, as well the tokenism of having it appear on signs not for its utility but its symbolism.

Ironically, you bemoan people saying 'only in Ireland' about annoyances common to most other countries too, but such expressions as that are themselves common to most countries!

I don't know I've ever heard an Irish person refer to someone in a derogatory way as a Paddy. And as for the belief that Ireland would be better under British rule, if it ever existed, it is now all but extinct. I can scarcely believe that you think it common. There will be some who will say John Bruton's calls for a return to the Commonwealth amount to the same thing, but as well as being a minority position, there's a very big difference between rule by Britain and being an equal member of an international political grouping to appease unionists.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972544#Comment_117972544

An awful lot of supposition is required to interpret from my OP that I am upset/angered/etc. Another poster described me as having a 'bitch fit'. But I merely listed several examples and hypothesised that it was the result of covert language laws.

As I think should be obvious, the issue is not the reasonable inclusion of Irish, which has been on all traffic signs for generations, but the prioritising of Irish over English, which is inherently political. Hence why Darts in the last five years have reversed the announcement of stops from 'The next station is X; an chead stad eile Y' to 'An chead stad eile...The next station is...Y...X'. Ordering the announcements so that the one in the language understood by a small minority is first is incredibly indulgent.

I won't elaborate further. It's likely that if you haven't found anything in the thread compelling, nothing I will say will seem logical to you.

03-10-2021 11:31pm

I don't see any prioritising of Irish over English anywhere in the country!

But even if it was, so what?

03-10-2021 11:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971405#Comment_117971405

I'm suggesting that independence wouldn't have helped as regards the Irish language. Prior to independence, education policy was, inter alia, to terrorise children into speaking English in preference to Irish. There was a 180 degree pivot almost instantaneously following the establishment of the Free State, to the extent that before we had a Department of Education we had a Department of Irish. But the teachers and parents of the immediate post-independence generation were carrying a message of antipathy to Irish that had been beaten into them - in many cases literally - for almost 70 years prior to that. It is hard to imagine how those teachers and parents could possibly have imparted anything like a positive attitude to Irish in the children in their charge or in their care. In fact, it is easy to imagine how they would have done the opposite, not in spite of the official policy of the State, but because of it. Past trauma is carried and held by people every bit as effectively as present trauma, so I'm not convinced that your mid-20th century illustrations hold up.

The Newfoundland thing is interesting, but I don't know enough about the make up of the immigrant population of Newfoundland to comment with any authority. There was a time when there were almost 200,000 Gàidhlig speakers in Nova Scotia, although today sadly there are fewer than 1,000. It's hard to believe that a motion to make Gàidhlig one of Canada's official parliamentary languages made it to the floor of the Canadian House of Commons.

My takeaway from your closing paragraph is that people aren't hostile to Irish because of learning it at school. They'd just prefer never to hear it again. That's probably my analysis, and the good news for them is that they'll eventually get their way.

04-10-2021 12:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971928#Comment_117971928

In 2020/21, children in Gaelscoileanna were significantly more likely to be in classes of more than 30 than their non-Gaelscoil counterparts, and far less likely to be in schools with less than 20 pupils. Class sizes are smaller in Gaeltacht schools, but that is in line with the fact that class sizes are smaller in rural schools generally.

04-10-2021 12:24am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971802#Comment_117971802

I'm a speaker of Irish and an advocate for the language, but I wouldn't dream of using the term "native tongue" to describe Irish on this island. It simply isn't; it is the mother tongue of a depressingly small and decreasing number of people here, trying to hold some space for itself against the background of a profoundly hostile history while competing with a cultural juggernaut. Anyone who has a genuine interest in preserving Irish and trying to extend its reach needs to start from that position of awareness.

Strumms · 04-10-2021 12:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971374#Comment_117971374

Problem is you spend 12 plus years being taught it, between primary and secondary schools, you do your leaving cert and 99% of people will never require it or have a use for it again.. either in their home / personal life or work life... I know it’s a cultural thing, an identity thing but for the subject to be mandatory for 12/13 years of your education and afterwards the vast vast majority of people won’t utter a syllable of Irish let alone have any use for it in their daily life... says to me that the ‘mandatory’ teaching of Irish is as much a political concern / issue as an educational one...

i did my leaving over 20 years ago and like many people, the majority I’d say have never been required to speak Irish or listen to and understand Irish since... not once, that’s an awful lot of time learning, studying...something, a language that’s not going to be used by you, by the vast vast majority of us...for the most part...

why I believe that certainly for junior and leaving cert, it probably should not be mandatory.. students should have the ability to opt in or out...

04-10-2021 1:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972870#Comment_117972870

You've never been required to do calculus or quadratic equations either, or read someone else's calculus or quadratic equations. I doubt you have ever been required to recite, read or analyse any of the poetry or prose you had to cover on the English curriculum, nor have you ever been required to read anyone else's English poetry and prose analysis. So what?

The trouble is that people who have a fear of Irish (and as I said I think this is more about fear than anger) come up with all these excuses for dissing the language, but you'd be a long time searching for someone starting a thread moaning about calculus, T.S. Eliot or Sylvia Plath. Perhaps they don't have enough lazy tropes to make it worth their while?

Strumms · 04-10-2021 1:14am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972884#Comment_117972884

Correct, but Mathematics is the promotion of mental reasoning through numbers...which is why you learn mathematics...lots of industries require mathematics all be it calculus or quadratic equations indeed are not of tangible use... you’ll need maths in lots of industries..aviation, pharmaceutical, building/construction...loads more..

English ? We are taught poetry etc as it culturally resonates, we read, we write, we debate, we evaluate, you and I are doing so now...

I’ve never been of a ‘need’ to use Irish since I left secondary school, not close... not say don’t teach it, I’m saying it probably is not a requirement that it’s mandatory.

french, German, Italian, Spanish, are choices, we pick one but none of these subjects we are told we MUST do... perhaps Irish could just become a chosen language.

04-10-2021 1:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972870#Comment_117972870

You could say the same thing about a lot of subjects and even parts of subjects that you learn and are examined on in school and third level.

I haven't used any of the geography or physics that I took for my leaving cert since leaving school. In the various I.T. related positions that I have held and do at the moment, I have never had to use the majority of the various maths disciplines that were separate subjects in my computer science degree never mind forming part of the leaving cert maths exam. Others who I know do use them due to the types of systems that they write. Same as the fact that a number of my extended family use Irish in their personal and professional lives on a daily basis, but I don't.

04-10-2021 1:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972902#Comment_117972902

There's always an excuse for doing down what you fear. Maths something something OK, English something something OK, Irish - AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGHHHH **** RIGHT OFF!

I thought English poetry was great. I also thought Irish poetry was great. I still read poems from both my Irish and English Leaving Cert courses. I still do algebra, quadratic equations and stuff like that. I've read History way beyond the somewhat limited (and very white) stuff we did on the LC. I've an abiding interest in Geography, and that sparked an interest in environmental science and politics. I'm still fascinated by Physics, and I've read through an entertaining collection of books on quantum mechanics and gravitational physics. I've never developed my French, although I do still keep up a bit of an interest in it along with one or two other Latin languages.

I wasn't required to do any of that, but I was and am fascinated and curious, so that's why I did it. I also didn't like some stuff more and some stuff less because it was mandatory or because it wasn't, and frankly, neither do those who have such a fear of Irish.

I'm happy with Irish, Maths and English remaining mandatory subjects. Some people think the problem is that Irish is promoted too much by the State; I think it's promoted too little and our standards are too low. Moreover, I think the same about English and Maths. I don't expect or even ask anyone to agree with me, but then I don't really give a crap whether they do or don't.

Strumms · 04-10-2021 1:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972912#Comment_117972912

Both geography and physics I’ve used the majority or my working life and a level of mathematics would be required too ( aviation) I’ve lived and worked in France so French which I studied helped... History gives us an understanding of our world, politics, conflict, cultures and life... so the majority of education had some usefulness.

Strumms · 04-10-2021 1:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972918#Comment_117972918

Who fears Irish ? That’s a slightly absurd claim, whether it’s taught or otherwise mandatory or otherwise will have zero impact on my life, it’s a discussion.

04-10-2021 2:01am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972919#Comment_117972919

I didn't say that I didn't still have an interest in some and parts of those subjects, I just don't use what was part of the majority of the honours geography leaving cert syllabus when I did my leaving cert as an example on a daily basis.

I get use out of some of the various maths disciplines in both work and in my woodworking related hobbies, and I enjoy architecture and history as well.

As you said the majority of education has it's usefulness, which would include Irish, especially for those who use it for work or pleasure as also going by your argument. If you don't use the various subjects or even parts of them when they are multi discipline subjects like maths, in either your work or for personal life, the opposite could be said that they are of no use, which is the case with Irish as a subject for some, as would algebra, or geography for others.

04-10-2021 3:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972923#Comment_117972923

I'd say a lot of people do. The irrational need some people have to bang on about the Irish language is difficult to explain away as just a matter of anger. That level of hostility is something you'd tend to associate with an element of fear. Why that fear exists is another matter. I do wonder if a lot of people still buy into that message of hostility and fear passed down the generations since the 19th century? I'm not saying that is the reason, but it's a bit of a struggle to see what else it could be. Someone else on the thread referred to English monolingualism, and a tendency among English-only speakers to expect everyone else to speak English to suit them. That could be an answer, but again I wouldn't be definitive. There is also some evidence out there of people perceiving learning a second or subsequent language as a sign of "privilege" or "elitism" - and in fairness you can see that viewpoint in some of the uglier comments in this thread.

riclad · 04-10-2021 3:27am

Irish should be a subject like French after year 3, you can choose it if you want. The problem I see is most people never speak it after leaving school, if you live in a city, large town everyone speaks English . If you want to get a degree subjects like French maths physics are import to get a course or to get a job in real life. So how many millions are spent teaching Irish at leaving cert level while we are short of nurses and doctors, hospital wards , eg the Irish budget is limited, we are in a housing crisis . I don't care if someone emails me in Irish as long as there's an English copy to read learning history or maths English etc is not useless even if you end up working on a building site I think we need a new subject call it life skills, eg it covers basic medical topics, stds, how to Get a loan, what is a mortgage, interest rates, the importance of voting, family planning, things every adult needs to know

04-10-2021 4:09am

My day to day experiences of the Irish language: a) When I ring up a govenment service and have to wait for the recorded message as Gaeilge to get finished so I can get on with my business. b) There's some cracking looking birds on TG4 c) Laughing at none of the ROI soccer team knowing the words to the national anthem. You'd think they'd get (bribe) just one of them to learn the words. My money is on Caoimhin Kelleher belting it out if/when he starts a senior game d) being bored silly by morons who start using their name in Irish and suddenly think they're Sean O Riordain reborn.

I went to a Gaelscoil and did Honours Irish for the LC. I have no love for the language at all. But keep forcing it down people's throats on medicine bottles, street signs and other **** because you know there's nothing essential about it that would make the masses want to know it.

Strumms · 04-10-2021 8:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972961#Comment_117972961

I don’t think learning or knowing a second language can be considered elitism because simply every student for about 13 years of their life is taught Irish and subsequently in post primary are taught French/German/Spanish/Italian etc...

astrofool · 04-10-2021 10:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972918#Comment_117972918

Only Irish is mandatory, everything else is optional, English and Maths are ubiquitous because they are the most useful for any job and required for almost every professional job, the rest of the subjects are on a sliding scale of usefulness, Irish would not be high on this barometer, it's taken because it's mandatory, drop the mandatory nature and let those who love Irish get that funding to promote it in useful ways rather than not educating children to use it, it should always be an option and there should always be a class available for those who want to learn it, but forcing it onto people kills any passion they have for it.

04-10-2021 10:30am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972069#Comment_117972069

Nothing at all like that. I don’t speak the language, but am happy that it’s protected. That’s the majority view.

I still urge the people offended by signs in Irish to organise. Getting angry on the internet serves no purpose. The rise of Sinn Fein as a political party popular amongst the young doesn’t bode well for your chances, but there’s probably some room for a party hostile to the Irish language with other issues attached (be sure to be pro cheaper housing).

Getting enough votes to get one candidate elected might be challenging, getting enough votes to become the majority of the dail to vote for the referendum might be even more challenging. Then you need to get the vote out.

lots of work there. And good luck.

04-10-2021 10:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058211385/the-creeping-prominence-of-the-irish-language

Another West Brit - anti Irish post

Wibbs · 04-10-2021 10:35am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972782#Comment_117972782

It's not that I'd prefer not to hear it again Uly, it's far more that it has little resonance for me. I think it's in a much better position than it was a few decades ago and isn't going anywhere soon and as far as I'm concerned that's a good thing for the language and those who speak it. That would be about the extent of my attitude to the language these days.

Now thinking more on it and what my attitudes were to it in my youth learning it, or indeed not learning it at school, they would have been different. I suppose I would have been glad that it was still around, somewhere, just preferably not around me kinda thing. 🙂 As an urban Dubliner going back to the egg I had no connection to it. It was "foreign" to me, a language of somewhere else and a somewhere else I didn't particularly relish. For me at the time it was the language of the parochial, the rustic, the cloying cassock, cute hoors, DeValeras's damp fields, up for the match, the past. And in before the Union Jackeen stuff, no I don't follow English soccerball or rugby and I'd rather have a wide awake spleenectomy than suffer through a game of cricket and consider one of the best moments in Irish history is when we kicked London out of our affairs. It's a great pity they buggered the language and the country for so long. It would have been great if we'd ended up a fully bilingual culture, but it wasn't to be and it wasn't just the "Brits" fault either.

I strongly suspect my attitudes would be different if I'd been a kid in the 90's or 00's rather than the 70's and the 80's. For a start the urban/rural divide is significantly narrower than it was on all fronts, the church is gone, as is DeV's Ireland. All good things.

Wibbs · 04-10-2021 10:38am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973568#Comment_117973568

You seem to have me confused with those who are railing against street signs and the like. I'm not. I quite simply don't care as it doesn't affect me one way or the other. I'm happy enough to have it as cultural window dressing for the majority(and tourists) and of some office to those who actually speak the language. That's about it.

Nothing at all like that. I don’t speak the language, but am happy that it’s protected. That’s the majority view.

Indeed and that's the dissonance. The majority are happy it's protected, yet the majority don't speak it. For a language that's not a great optic. It's like some archaic stone relic in a field, protected and people are happy it is, but of little import to most who pass it by.

dubdaymo · 04-10-2021 11:21am

Some people here may not know this but in the 50's, 60's and early 70's you could get 100% in your Leaving in all other subjects but fail Irish and you failed the exam - no cert to wave. Probably hard to believe now but that's the way it was.

On leaving school and looking for a job in the Civil Service or any State company not having Honours Irish barred you.

This injustice caused a lot of grief to thousands of school leavers over a great many years and was a major factor in the ongoing hatred of the Irish language. (apart from the way it was taught).

An organisation was formed (can't remember the name of it) to fight against the injustice and, eventually, the rule was changed. If memory serves me correctly the late Gay Byrne was involved in it.

As long as we don't go back to "that sort of thing" I'm not concerned.

witchgirl26 · 04-10-2021 11:25am

I don't understand the issue here honestly at all. It's not like the English isn't also being used so people can't understand what is being written or said. Why is anyone getting so het up over the Irish now being included too for people who might want to read it? I went to a Gaelscoil for second level and honestly, while I don't use Irish every day, I'm glad I still have it. Like anything, I'm not down with the extremism on either side or ramming it down anyone's throat but I don't believe providing signage, notifications, governmental information etc in duel language format is really affecting anyone on a day to day basis. And if it is, then maybe those individuals need to examine why they are getting so annoyed about something so small.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971936#Comment_117971936

Actually a lot of the time the interview is more to understand if the parents will help the child at home in terms of the learning of the language. For those with non-Irish speaking parents (not just immigrant families but families where no one speaks Irish anymore), it's a chance for the school to give them some materials to help them help the child and suggest any basic Irish courses. I know a couple of families who've been through them and said it's more about ensuring that the child is getting a full 360 help and that the school are helping the family too. I've never heard of anyone being rejected to the school after these interviews.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117971795#Comment_117971795

That's a downright lie about additional needs. I have relatives in a second level Gaelscoil, friends who are teachers in both primary & second level ones and friends with children in a primary Gaelscoil. All have a mix of individuals. My nephew has an SNA in his school to help with his ASD. He is not the only one in his class with additional needs let alone his year or school.

As for a little to no foreign nationals - the Gaelscoil beside me has about a 60-40 mix between Irish and immigrant families. It completely can depend on the area.

dubhthach · 04-10-2021 11:53am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973781#Comment_117973781

The vast majority of school population didn't do the Leaving cert until the introduction of Free secondary education in 1967. This is evident in the census data.

The majority of both boys (60.1%) and girls (54.2%) aged from 15-19 in 1966 had only completed primary school education. For secondary school education the figures were 14.2% (Boys) and 20.1% (Girls). It thus didn't affect most people working in semi-states at non-managerial levels (vast majority).

Needless to say the pass in Irish for leaving cert was abolished as a mandatory requirement in 1973 by Fine Gael goverenment, likewise it's requirement for civil service entry was abolished in 1974. Anyone who passed Civil service exam before 1974 is retired (or dead) now.

ireallydontknow · 04-10-2021 12:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973568#Comment_117973568

This is a bad-faith argument. Could you imagine if every complaint was met with the challenge to go start a political party?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973781#Comment_117973781

Effectively, that remains partly the case. The NUI universities require a pass in Irish for entry, regardless of the course. It may be that you now don't fail the the LC outright, but the only reason to do the LC is for college entry. Of course, the fact that Trinity, UL, DCU and the ITs don't require it mean that there are now alternatives that once didn't exist.

TomSweeney · 04-10-2021 12:46pm

The amount of resources wasted in printing all these signs in Irish in Dublin where literally no one will read them in a practical sense - some will say I understand it sure, but they will read the english part if they need to - let's be honest - anyone saying they read the Irish in a practical sense is lying.

How about finding out what EU language is the biggest spoken/understood after English (I'd say Polish or Spanish) and printing these notices in those languages - so you know it would actually have use...

Nothing worse than those little gael goer fascists trying to push this dead language on us...

Snickers Man · 04-10-2021 12:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117967292#Comment_117967292

Why? That's not what we have referendums for. They are to give consent to amendments to the constitution, not make popular, or populist, decisions.

Remember that clown that wanted to have a referendum on whether or not Roy Keane should be let back in the Irish team? He didn't have a clue about constitutional issues.

Either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aEitwow6M6s

astrofool · 04-10-2021 12:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974173#Comment_117974173

Agree, it's legislation, it doesn't need to be in the constitution as it ties the hands of all future governments. The act itself is a sop, but I'm happier for it to exist outside of bunreacht na heireann.

Earthhorse · 04-10-2021 3:03pm

The comparisons around the practical benefits of learning Irish versus Maths and English are always so rubbish.

No, you likely won't use algebra or trigonometry in your daily life again but you will use statistics and probability more than likely, if only to understand the world around you. You will certainly use addition, subtraction, multiplication and division a huge amount and understanding compound interest is useful to anyone who ever takes out a loan. So the basic, intermediary and advanced levels of the subject are all useful.

Likewise, you won't need to analyse a poem ever in your life again but if you can understand the sophistry of a character like Marc Antony you will likely be able to parse and interpret political speeches, manifestos, articles in the media, corporate communications as well as more informal messages from friends and families. Whilst this is a skill you might develop naturally there's no doubt as to its usefulness and some formal learning in it is justified.

By contrast, not only will you never parse and analyse a poem in Irish, you won't have any sort of sophisticated conversation or do any meaningful reading in the language; in fact, beyond saying "Hello", "Goodbye", "How are you?", "Can I go to the loo?", "Kiss my ass" and half a dozen other stock phrases, all of which I could teach you in a fortnight, you'll never use the language again. By all means, argue in favour of a revival of the language or what have you but Irish falls well short in the practical stakes when compared to English and Maths, regardless of how much you personally enjoyed any of these subjects.

Personally speaking it doesn't bother me too much if the Irish comes first on official documentation but I do agree it is a worse design decision from a practical stand point.

Furze99 · 04-10-2021 3:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974173#Comment_117974173

:) Had a good laugh at that - so you are suggesting that the government should not consult the public on such matters and seek to find out what the popular opinion is??? For 'popular' try reading what the 'majority might choose'. Banana Republic comes to mind. We're supposed to be living in some sort of democracy, are we not?

ohnonotgmail · 04-10-2021 3:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117975058#Comment_117975058

the forum for getting that opinion is not a referendum. you simply don't understand what a referendum is for.

Snickers Man · 04-10-2021 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117975058#Comment_117975058

What ohnonotgmail said.

We have laws; we have constitutional ground rules. The constitution establishes rights and restrictions within which governments can legislate. eg We don't want the government to legislate for capital punishment: we can put an article in the constitution prohibiting it from doing so. And we did.

We want to permit divorce: we can vote to remove the article in the constitution that prohibited that from taking place. How the government legislates for that freedom and just what it permits or doesn't permit is down to the government to propose and the parliament to vote on whether to accept it or not. If you feel strongly about it, you lobby your TD to represent your point of view and if they don't do it...well there's an election every five years at least so you can vote to kick them out if you want to.

We don't need a referendum every time the government has to take a decision.

Jim2007 · 04-10-2021 8:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972870#Comment_117972870

I would not agree at all. Even if you never speak a word of Irish again you have benefitted from it. I see native English and Irish people trying to learn German here in Switzerland and in general the Irish people usually progress faster. I suspect the reason is that Irish people have already experienced the concept of another language - the concept of grammar, thinking in another language etc... the younger you are the easier it is to learn these concepts and use them when learning other languages. There are even studies that suggest children who encounter multiple languages at an early age have their brain wired up differently.

Strumms · 04-10-2021 8:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976502#Comment_117976502

Absolutly regarding the brain and languages.. but learning a language that would be of more tangiable benefit to you might be better... again i believe irish should be on the curriculum but not compulsory in the leaving...choice...students have to choice right now..

Upforthematch · 04-10-2021 9:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117976571#Comment_117976571

I think people forget that when you learn a language you are also learning about a culture. It comes part and parcel of the package. You learn French, you will learn something about France and francophone countries in the process. You master the language and you get to enjoy literature, TV programmes, films, job opportunities etc...

Same with Irish. You learn songs and rhymes in primary school that you simply wouldn't learn if they were in English. That's a good thing. You master the language and you get the same benefits as with any other language; literature, TV programmes, films, job opportunities etc...

Now imagine if some people on this thread got their way and Irish was not part of their education. They would actually leave school not knowing basic words about their own country.

A:Where does the president live?

B: Emmmm Arsene Hookterawn,

A: That sounds funny, I wonder was it named after some french dude.

04-10-2021 9:40pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973182#Comment_117973182

It isn't elitist, and it shouldn't be considered as such. But it is regarded by many as elitist, especially by people with a poorer background.

04-10-2021 9:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117972965#Comment_117972965

I completely disagree. We need more mandatory Irish, not less. And life skills shouldn't be a matter for schools; they should be a matter for parents and guardians.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117974153#Comment_117974153

Poor Tom and his fear. Many government agencies do actually produce information notices in languages other than English and Irish, particularly in Polish and Chinese. It would be good if more could do likewise.

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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