The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

05-10-2021 11:12pm

The government won't topple over this as it is not affecting enough FF FG TDs. They know this and it is why they are not caving. The country feels sorry that this is happening to people but resentful of contributing towards the cost of large 5 bed houses for someone else when they are getting hammered by a mortgage on a 3 bed semi and the amount of billions being banded about.

The accuracy of this is, like most things, lost on the average person who picks up one or two soundbites and goes with that and at the minute it's "billions for 5 bed mansions" from what I have overheard.

I'm not sure how this narrative can be changed without a clear strategy of communication of the issue because at the minute all the rest of the country sees is Paddy Diver hammering blocks outside the dail and a group of people demanding 100% to build their mansions and nothing less while most are of the opinion that some compromise will have to be made so "100% redress, no less" is actually playing badly with the rest of the country.

Anyway that is my take from random people offering up their opinion. They are missing the part where much less than half are over 2000 sq foot.

salonfire · 05-10-2021 11:18pm

If its possible to replace the outer leaf, would it not be possible to replace all walls in a similar fashion? Work at one wall at a time and use temporary supports as the wall comes down and rebuilt.

Rebuild walls in sections rather than demolition of the whole house.

05-10-2021 11:20pm

Who are the people buying from the quarry which is most responsible for this?

Are customers at this stage not making sure that builders are not using blocks from this quarry and even going to the point of sourcing blocks from outside of the affected region all together?

Penfailed · 05-10-2021 11:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981677#Comment_117981677

That's Option 2 of the current scheme. It could actually work out more expensive to do due to the logistics.

Penfailed · 05-10-2021 11:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981686#Comment_117981686

No one is presently.

salonfire · 05-10-2021 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981723#Comment_117981723

Yeah, I'd imagine it's more labour intensive and trickier to remove the waste. With the roof left intact, it might minimise disruption though and possibly the occupants could stay in the house.

06-10-2021 3:46am

Do the group lobbying on behalf of mica affected homeowners want ALL affected houses to be demolished and rebuilt?

Penfailed · 06-10-2021 6:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981757#Comment_117981757

They can't stay in the house. Your kitchen would still have to be removed and so would your bathroom.

Penfailed · 06-10-2021 6:05am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981923#Comment_117981923

No...but they want a state guarantee that those that aren't treated in this way will be able to access the scheme again should the inner fail further down the line.

riddles · 06-10-2021 6:43am

A significant volume of houses were built to a low standard with poor partition walls, inadequate ventilation and poor insulation etc. Does this mean the government needs to provide a more extensive redress scheme or how is that decided?

06-10-2021 6:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981957#Comment_117981957

That is the 40 year guarantee element? It seems engineers would need to sign off on this as a viable solution which I think they have said they won't do to protect their reputation and professional indemnity as there are no studies done on repairs of this kind. Without engineers signing off on this can the outer leaf repair option proceed?

I believe Engineers Ireland have recommended over 50% of houses should be demolished and rebuilt. Would the owners of these houses accept anything less than this?

Penfailed · 06-10-2021 7:16am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981989#Comment_117981989

My engineer recommended that my house be demolished. The council are trying to push a lesser option on the basis of cost...not on the basis of need. I trust my engineer, not the council.

06-10-2021 7:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982001#Comment_117982001

I would expect that everyone in your position would think the same which I believe is over 50% of affected houses from a podcast with engineers Ireland I heard recently.

firemansam4 · 06-10-2021 9:44am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981975#Comment_117981975

Are these people living in houses that are falling down around them, that are unsafe for them and their family to live in?

Are they in a situation where they can no longer get house insurance because of it? or where they have to pay back a large mortgage on a house that is now effectively worthless?

How about not bringing up stupid whataboutery scenarios that in no way compares to this mica situation many families find themselves in.

riddles · 06-10-2021 12:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982351#Comment_117982351

I think the absence of enforcement of building standards and lack of accountability runs a little deeper than you seem to think. That’s the very mindset that allows this stuff to run through the system.

water-man · 06-10-2021 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982001#Comment_117982001

Very sorry to hear about your home.

If you don't mind me asking are you happy to go back and use cement blocks again? What re-assures you the new blocks will be any better? I'm assuming there is only self certification from all cement block manufactures?

NIMAN · 06-10-2021 1:55pm

That's exactly why it's about time the government did random, frequent testing of all blocks coming out of all Irish quarries, to make sure this is never an issue again.

It's embarrassing to see houses 100yrs old still standing strong, whilst houses built in the last 20 are falling down.

Penfailed · 06-10-2021 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983436#Comment_117983436

I'd be perfectly happy to use concrete blocks again...as long as I got to choose the supplier.

I know of quite a few people that are terrified of using concrete blocks again and some have even went to the effort of pricing modular homes. I'm not even sure if you'd get planning for something like that...

MrMusician18 · 06-10-2021 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983518#Comment_117983518

Why limit it to blocks? Why not concrete, mortars, aggregates, timber, tiles, pipework, cabling? Why not have full time building inspectors sitting on every site? Why not load massive costs on building and massive liabilities on the State?

Or we could have responsibility. We could have it that every builder is responsible for using durable materials.

givyjoe · 06-10-2021 3:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984275#Comment_117984275

The quarry I'm sure is a limited company, and would not be able to pay billions in damages so it doesn't solve the problem. It would be high enough to put their insurers out of business also I'd say, even if liability could be pinned on them (unlikely anyway). There was already a scheme for pyrite, why shouldn't there be one for Mica?

Actually sorry, you're referencing builders?! How on earth are they meant to be sure that the blocks won't degrade or are faulty? This is exactly why there should be independent/regulated standards.

MrMusician18 · 06-10-2021 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984320#Comment_117984320

So rather than suing the company that caused the problem, it's chasing the organisation with the deepest pockets.

Builders get declarations of performance for building products. If they are shown to be falsified, the builder can sue the supplier.

NIMAN · 06-10-2021 4:00pm

This 'sue the builder or supplier' line has been going round for ages in these discussions.

It has already been pointed out many times, both here and in media clips such as prime time, that some homeowners have tried this and been told it's a non starter. The block supplier did not have correct or adequate insurance to cover this, and a letter has been issued to homeowners stating this.

So basically the homeowners have no recourse to compensation, unless it comes from the state. I appreciate that many on here wouldn't give those affected a cent, but thankfully the government have seen their needs and acknowledged that they intend to help.

timmyntc · 06-10-2021 4:14pm

There is a difference between how things should go and how they actually have gone:

It should be the case that a faulty build homeowner can sue builder who can sue supplier

However what actually is the case in this country is that insurance will not cover faulty materials - they simply will not pay out. Which means supplier goes out of business (good!) but will have nowhere near enough in funds to cover the damages. The state are literally the only option for recourse here - they created a cowboy environment that allowed this to happen (several times! - pyrite in dublin started in 1997, pyrite in mayo/clare/limerick, and mica in donegal) so they now have to deal with the consequences.

The alternative is mass homelessness and mass defaulting on mortgages. Our domestic banks would probably be wiped out by the liabilities also if all outstanding mortgages on defective homes simply defaulted. The homelessness figures would overwhelm our already struggling homelessness facilities, and the ensuing civil unrest would bring down any government also. There is no other option but government intervention.

06-10-2021 4:18pm

@Niman: There are some posters on here, that are extremely persistent in opposing any realistic help to the homeowners.

At this point, I'm seeing a definite pattern of a "divide and conquer" strategy.

As to those who suggest trundling people into estates? Or giving them a cash sum?

A: Where do they think there are 5000 houses for sale in Donegal?

B: Do they think there's limitless developement land available for sale for sites around villages in Donegal?

Lastly, who would gain from building 5000 new homes, if that were either acceptable, or even an option?

And what would it do to the price of houses in the area? We've already seen the effect brexit combined with staycations in property price rises...

It seems to me that not every person who posts on here is necessarily objective...

Such people aren't worth replying to, in my opinion.

listermint · 06-10-2021 4:27pm

Much of this comes down to 'my engineer' versus the council engineer.

Ive genuinely never come across an engineer who's delighted or happy to put their name across other people's partial constructions. They tie numerous get outs when doing retrospective building certificates. So I'm not in anyway surprised you can find an engineer to say start again. It's the default position for the majority in the residential sector tbh.

I'd prefer I'd the government engaged a civil engineer firm and did proper research on outer leaf replacement with a facts based analysis. And not rely on what independents are willing to put their name against.

MrMusician18 · 06-10-2021 4:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984465#Comment_117984465

That doesn't make any sense... Even if the company didn't have enough money to make good all the claims, there is definitely a first mover advantage to be had here. The first 10, 20 homeowners could have been made good by suing the supplier, forcing the sale of their assets etc, but no one seemingly has done this. The question is, why not? A letter?

A letter carries no legal weight. You can write whatever you want in a letter.

And it's not about not wanting to help. It's that help should absolutely be based on basic housing need and individual means, like almost all other state support. It should not be about the making people whole financially again, rebuilding empty nests or houses that far exceed the national average in size. That isn't fair to the rest of us.

RandomViewer · 06-10-2021 4:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984275#Comment_117984275

Why haven't Cassidys been pulled for something, every motorist is paying for Quinn and PMPA failure in insurance why weren't all Cassidy holdings taken for failure to have insurance to cover bad materials?

MrMusician18 · 06-10-2021 4:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117984619#Comment_117984619

This magic letter seemingly. If only I could write a letter to my creditors saying, "nah, can't pay" and they'd blindly accept it.

NIMAN · 06-10-2021 5:04pm

I think the family on Prime Time that were suing Cassidys, and who received the letter from Cassidys solicitors saying they did not have adequate insurance, were then told it would cost a lot more money to continue with the case (50k is springing to mind, not sure if that's right or not), and they couldn't afford to continue the case.

NIMAN · 06-10-2021 5:06pm

The only thing I would say is that I wish CAB would seize the assets of said firm, as they don't deserve to be sitting on a pile of cash, big cars and big houses for their carry on.

But as usual in this country, the bigger mess you make, the more likely you are to get away scot-free with no investigation. It is staggering to think there will be no investigation into something which looks like it's going to cost the taxpayer billions .

The Curse of Defective Concrete (Mica, Pyrrhotite, etc.) in Donegal homes - Read Mod warning Post 1

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