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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,955 ✭✭✭realhorrorshow




  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n




  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Did I suggest that?

    In my opinion catt is a poor coach. A good player but a poor coach.

    Ireland would benefit from him being replaced on the coaching ticket in my opinion. You may have a different opinion and that's ok.

    Catts record with England, Italy and Ireland is poor and irelands attack has been blunt with little flare or variety under his guidance.

    After the 6 nations in March Farrells and Catts win ratio after 14 games was a low 64% boosted by games v Georgia and Italy a few times and potentially would have been worse if they played a 3 test series v Australia last summer.

    Declan Kidney’s and Joe Schmidt had win ratios of about 80% for their first two seasons in charge of Ireland. 81 and 78.

    Irelands set piece has improved dramatically by the addition to the likes of o connell to the coaching ticket. A similar change should take place with the attack coach but I don't see farrell dropping his old buddy.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    You can’t hold a series that didn’t go ahead against him; his record potentially could have been better after it too. You’re using games that didn’t go ahead to add to your criticism of him, which is ridiculous.

    Equally, I’d wager Schmidt and Kidney had better squads at their disposal.

    Things have been far from perfect under Farrell. But our performance against England was encouraging, especially in an attacking sense. (It was our 4th biggest win against them ever). I think that should buy Catt some time for now at least.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I said his record was poor after the 6 nations at 64% and could have been worse if he went on a 3 game tour in the southen hemisphere. Not a massive stretch of the imagination. They played the likes of Georgia instead of Australia in the summer or Nz or SA in November. 64% is still poor no matter what was you look at it.

    England were terrible in the 6 nations finishing with only Italy beneath them on the table. Id prefer to judge irelands performance in the whole tournament and not just the last game against a team that was playing badly.

    The attack play against France and Wales was toothless and some of the worst ive ever seen at international level. Kicking poor uncontestables off turnover ball . From the start of the France game the gameplan was kick it away and they had picked a half back pair who wouldn't be known for their kicking quality..

    In the France game ireland had over 60% possession and created only 4 clean breaks and 3 off loads and kicked the ball away over 40 times.

    The Italy games aside we actually failed to score more tries than our opponents. France, Scotland and Wales all scored more tries than us in our games and over all in the tournament.

    France scored 20 tries and Wales and Scotland scored 18 and we only managed 12 with half of them coming against Italy.

    As for your point on the squads and how kidney and joe would have had better squads at their disposal.. im not sure that stacks up.. Kidney would not have have as many to choose from and while his starting team was excellent his squad had quiet a large tail to it..Joe had a good squad when he took over But he had created much of that squad at Leinster. Also he had to bring Johnny back from France so there was not great depth at half back.

    When you look at it Farrell actually inherited a squad who had been ranked 1st in the world less than 12 months earlier.. so you cant say he inherited a poor squad.

    I think he just made a few poor decisions with his squad selection.

    For example, with other available options Farrell picked burns and Jgp and I don't think either would get picked to start for any of the other 6 nations teams.

    Id imagine Even Italy would pick Varney and garbisi over them.

    Both were available to Joe and he didn't think they were good enough to select them for squads let alone start them in the 6 nations and even give jpg 80 minutes. Id say farrell would have equally as good a squad as joe started with but for poor selections.

    If you believe that Catt, by irelands performance v england has bought himself more time fair enough that's your opinion.

    I believe we have gone backwards and our attack has suffered under his watch.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    For example, with other available options Farrell picked burns and Jgp and I don't think either would get picked to start for any of the other 6 nations teams. 

    Both were available to Joe and he didn't think they were good enough to select them for squads let alone start them in the 6 nations and even give jpg 80 minutes. Id say farrell would have equally as good a squad as joe started with but for poor selections.

    Who should he have picked that would have been better. On one hand you want to say he inherited a strong squad. Then you highlight the fact we don’t with that post. Would picking Carty, Byrne, Marmmion, Blade or Cooney have been better than Burns or JGP. No they wouldn’t because we are lacking in quality hugely in both positions.


    If you believe that Catt, by irelands performance v england has bought himself more time fair enough that's your opinion.

    I believe we have gone backwards and our attack has suffered under his watch


    You were also most likely someone who criticized our attack under Joe. The reliance on starter plays and Lineouts to create Scores. How exactly has our attack gone backwards. It might have failed to improve but that’s a different argument.

    The main difference and it began in 2019, was that our forwards were coming off second best in nearly every game. If you can’t create forward momentum, it’s very difficult to have a meaningful attack.

    You also highlight kicking ball away off turnovers. Do you believe that is a tactic or an individual decision?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,932 ✭✭✭TRC10


    For example, with other available options Farrell picked burns and Jgp and I don't think either would get picked to start for any of the other 6 nations teams.

    Sexton and Murray were injured.

    If he picked say R.Byrne and Marmion, you'd be saying the exact same thing, they wouldn't start for any other 6N team

    But that's reflective of our poor depth, not Farrell



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,478 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I've got my fingers crossed that Crowley or Healy push on in Munster. HB certainly needs an uninterrupted run too. Lowry , is another option. But, I don't think he's any better than Burns.

    All of our eggs are in the Carberry basket. I don't think he's the answer either. It's like we have several lads with potential and some average back ups. The pivotal position on the field and we are crossing our fingers.

    Catt will be kept on. It's getting close enough to the crucial moments of squad development and I don't see him being sacked at this late stage. In his defense, there were moments where we did try to play loose. But, we didn't look capable!

    Our best players seem to struggle with heads up, unscripted play. I have no idea why that is? Are our systems to rigid? Did Joe drive their creativity away? We do not score many tries and struggle to open up defenses.

    I think our depth is really good. Farrell may yet surprise us. I think he will complete his contract and he should. Who would we replace him with? Our world cup draw is not ideal and I think a semi final is not in the cards. Perseverance men! Onwards and upwards!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭ersatz


    I thought Casey looked good in the Munster game too, but Carberry was fairly ordinary. Some nice sharp passes on the line and one lovely one for a line break, but he fell off a few tackles, threw a screamer intercept and tried a chip ahead that really wasn't on and almost resulted in a try for the Sharks winger. It's early days I know but I haven't seen much from Carberry to indicate that he's way ahead of any of the alternatives to Sexton.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,497 ✭✭✭RichieRich_89


    I was thinking what Ireland's biggest impact forwards bench could be - in terms of dynamic carrying. 16. Sheehan, 17. Kilcoyne, 18. O'Toole, 19. Baird, 20. Coombes, maybe? That's assuming Porter starts at loosehead.

    The scrummaging ability of that front row would be a bit of a concern. It's somewhat surprising to me that Moore hasn't been involved at all with Ireland since he returned from overseas. He's been generally good for Ulster.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    Assuming Porter works out at Loosehead. Would Eric o sullivan be a better squad option than Kilkoyne?

    Given healys potential versatility subbing loosehead and potentially covering tighthead i'd imagine he will be guaranteed a squad spot at least barring injury for next 2 years..

    Would investing game time in a younger option like Eric o sullivan, Jordan duggan or Matthew Burke be a smarter call with a long term view.

    Also What would be the tighthead depth chart be like with Porter loosehead?

    1. Furlong

    2. O'toole

    3.Bealham

    4. Ryan

    5. Moore.?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,932 ✭✭✭TRC10


    Casey and Doak were both excellent this week.

    Safe to say we're looking good at 9 for the next ten years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Its a make or break season for Mike Catt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,320 ✭✭✭Teferi


    Hopefully the IRFU step in or put some pressure on Farrell to remove him if we show nothing over the coming campaigns.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,478 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I think Farrell will be loyal to Catt. We will see in November. There may be improvements!



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,536 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    Carbery was dreadful for Munster tonight,10 is a bit of an issue at the moment



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    If Leavy can get back to his pre-injury best, I’d love to see a back-row of 6. Coombes, 7. Leavy and 8. Doris. Or swap Doris and Coombes. Would seem like a brilliant blend of ball playing ability and physicality.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Discussion: If Furlong is injured before the six nations, will Cian Healy be the starting tight head for Ireland?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,932 ✭✭✭TRC10


    I highly doubt it because he's 3rd choice TH at Leinster. So he won't be in the match day 23 for Europe.

    I'd be reluctant to mess around with Porter any more. I'd like him left at LH.

    I'd imagine Bealham (criminally underrated player IMO) would start with O'Toole on the bench. Could call on John Ryan or Moore if needs be.

    1. Furlong
    2. Bealham
    3. O'Toole
    4. Ryan
    5. Moore




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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,932 ✭✭✭TRC10


    In all honesty I think Healy's Ireland days are done.

    Farrell favoured Kilcoyne (who is playing well) for the England game and now Porter will be ahead of him in the pecking order.

    I can't see him playing TH for Ireland as he'll be getting no big game exposure there for Leinster unless Furlong or Ala'alatoa get injured

    Hopefully he can prove me wrong



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,478 ✭✭✭Dubinusa


    I would assume that Healy would have to get into big matches for Leinster. If he can't, he should not be selected.

    I would take a punt on Marty Moore. Underrated and solid as a rock. Bealham is a decent option. O'Toole needs work ons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,860 ✭✭✭Former Former Former




  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    Its quite obvious having two of our current best props together on the field is the desired outcome. Its funny people on here dismissed this as fantasy not too long ago.

    To be honest, apart from the Healy bit its a bit obvious this was going to happen. its a waste of a player having either Porter or Furlong as a sort of finisher. IF Healy does well, that unexpected part, really is a stroke of genius. And could prolong Healy´s contribution.

    If Furlongs injured you move Porter to Tighthead. He´s on his way to becoming that rare but somewhat underused two position prop.

    Healy just doesn´t have the energy to be a starter. its written all over the way he moves. Which is understandable seeing he has been at the professional coalface since he was 19. His body must be in bits. The fact he is such an athlete (olympic weightlifting class is what Leinster coaches officially say) is the only reason he can do this.

    Also if Mack Hansen (irish qualified) continues on with similar stuff, i presume people think he comes into the reckoning?

    Post edited by starkid on


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,125 ✭✭✭PMC83


    Mack Hansen looks a good prospect alright, I'd imagine they would want to see a little more from him before a call up. What happened to Matt Healy? Very unlikely he'll be capped again but a shame he never pushed on from that SA tour.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    “It’s obvious this was going to happen” he says after the fact…



  • Administrators Posts: 53,707 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    If Porter genuinely becomes ambipropstrous then he can pretty much name his price on a contract, he'll have no shortage of clubs wanting to talk.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    yeah it was fairly clear there was going to be a conversation about it🙄. Heck it was raised here often enough by some. and of course the resident experts shouted that down. no way could he move back, or its better to have the power on the bench. Funnily enough some of the same people who said no way could he move across. No it was/is clearly better to have two World Class props on the field at the same time. And no player wants to be on the bench no matter what. Once Porter fulfilled his potential then it was always going to be an issue.

    AS i said nobody saw the Healy part.

    Porter was a converted loosehead. It was fairly clear he was going to revert or the discussion about reverting was going to be raised, once Healy couldn´t keep going. Personally i always think there was a rush to do away with props who can do both sides. A kind of NFLing of the position, making it a watertight expert position. Yes TH is harder, more dangerous, and the strength needed is huge. But would people really think Furlong himself couldn´t play loose? it wouldn´t happen like. but imo nothing is off the table in rugby. We are starting to see some people rethinking the old ways . Pick and go penalties is one, and the 8 breaking all the time now.

    Porter has clearly sacrificed some of his carrying ability for the energy needed in the TH position. Which is exactly what makes Furlong such a freak in the first place. HAving Porter and Furlong in the same side is probably our best lh/th combination in many years. Did peak Healy play with Furlong much?

    It immediately makes us a better side as Healy can no longer justify being number 1. And while Kilkoyne is a little pocket rocket, he´s 32 i think that ship has sailed as a starter.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    It will be interesting to see what the depth chart is like in a number of positions for the November Internationals.. Are the returning lions back soon?

    The next 3 rounds of the URC are very important for a lot of players and a great chance for someone to put up a hand for a number of positions..

    A few questions to be answered for me over the next 3 rounds..

    Is Porter first choice loosehead?

    Where does that leave healy, second choice loosehead or potentially 3rd choice tighthead?

    Is kelleher your 1st choice hooker?

    Which of last years back row players will miss out for the squad selection entirely..

    How far will JGP slip down the pecking order?

    Who starts 10 and can sexton be the bench option to close out the game?

    Who is as captain if sexton is not starting?

    Can the likes of Hume squeeze into the centre?

    Who gets the 11 and 14 Jersey's..

    Any chance of seeing ringrose on the wing?

    Can anyone from outside the 50 or so players Brought in to review last year sneak into the squad? Like Zebo or Doak...

    Who will be tasked with putting the head down and returning the kicks into heavy traffic now that stander is gone?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭OneLungDavy


    I really hope Kelleher is first choice now. Herring has been solid, but we should be past the point of picking solid options when we have freak athletes in Kelleher and Sheehan, especially considering their set piece is fairly consistent now.

    Hume should be in the mix for the Autumn, he's like a powerful Ringrose. I hope his trajectory keeps climbing, he could be world class.



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