Foundation (Apple) [ SPOILERS ]

expectationlost · 26-09-2021 2:18pm

ep 2 end

so Raych thinks Selden has to die for the predictions to work out? and Harry did too which is why he provoked him

where is Gaal going to end up?

VinLieger · 26-09-2021 8:13pm

Im on the fence as of yet. I adore the books and this will probably be a good reason to go back and read them but im not sure how the vast majority of people who haven't read the books are expected to warm to this when so far in my opinion its pretty obscure and quite high concept scifi and lacks any comprehensive world building or explanations for things that i understand having read the books but can imagine myself pretty nonplussed about if I hadn't read them.

As regards the quite significant changes im not really bothered by them yet beyond Demerzals role seemingly being reduced from first minister to that of a servant. Theres another thing i dont understand about what they have done with her but i cannot seem to get spoiler tags working on the new site

silverharp · 26-09-2021 11:42pm

I see they used the Trinity Long Room. it looks like possibly an interesting show, what are Apple like when it comes to committing to a show or cancelling them? seems like this show could be a slow burn or take time to build up an audience.

corkie · 27-09-2021 10:40am

Is this series just an adaptation of the Foundation stories, since they have already varied from the books in a major way.

But Foundation episode 2 ends with a shocking twist, as Hari Seldon's mission to Terminus is disrupted by tragedy. The events are entirely original to the TV series, not drawn from the books at all, so understandably even viewers who are well-acquainted with Asimov's books are unlikely to have seen this coming - what's going on?

https://screenrant.com/foundation-episode-2-ending-explained-gaal-hari-death/

Foundation: What Exactly Is The Vault?

https://screenrant.com/foundation-show-vault-barrier-salvor-hardin-explained/

Just a note here, it has been over 30 years since I last read the books.

corkie · 27-09-2021 7:29pm

For anyone wondering or looking for them.

The first four (of five) novelette's of 'Foundation' are available online (archive.org).

"Foundation", "Bridle and Saddle", "The Wedge", and "The Big and the Little" on the Internet Archive

got links from here: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_(Asimov_novel)

There are not anyway easy reading as the first dive straight into the story on 'Terminus'.

Edit: -

Foundation and Empire

"Dead Hand" and "The Mule" parts one and two on the Internet Archive

Source of links: - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundation_and_Empire

Second Foundation

"Now You See It..." and "...And Now You Don't" parts one and two on the Internet Archive

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Foundation

steve_r · 28-09-2021 9:26am

Watched the first two episodes of this last night. As someone who hasn't read the books, I do feel like I'm missing a lot of the story.

Visually it is incredible and the performances are great but there's a huge amount of gaps I have - how does the society work - does the empire rule all of the planets - has there ever been rebellions etc

I'll keep going with it but I could see it being a struggle for someone who hasn't read the books.

bnt · 28-09-2021 7:03pm

The Empire has a monopoly on fast interstellar travel, meaning they can respond and project force quickly, as we saw in Ep.2. They are resource-rich and can buy the loyalty of local governments and rulers: think satraps. I can imagine a local prince using the Empire as a boogeyman to keep his people in line: "behave or the Empire will come and kill you all".

The Roman Empire was an example from history that inspired the Foundation stories: how did Rome "control" such distant regions as Galicia or Palestine? With Carrot & Stick and permitting local autonomy.

Talisman · 29-09-2021 9:42am

I haven't looked at those books since the 1980s but I'm tempted to subscribe to the service just for this. It's incredibly ambitious to aim for an 80 episode arc to cover it all.

https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20210920-foundation-the-unfilmable-sci-fi-epic-now-on-our-screens

silverharp · 29-09-2021 2:24pm

from reading the books all I remember is the big picture stuff like Psychohistory , I doubt any series would do it justice though. Two episodes in, its ok, I want to like it, will need a few more episodes to judge it.

Talisman · 29-09-2021 8:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117935226#Comment_117935226

Regarding your first spoiler, I remember in the first book it's mentioned that there's an assumption in psychohistoric analysis that the population is unaware that the psychohistoric analysis is taking place because it will cause altered behaviour and impact the analysis. Quantum theory has a similar premise, by the very act of watching, the observer affects the observed reality.

In the book, Hari Sheldon was an old man and didn't travel into exile.

corkie · 29-09-2021 9:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117955894#Comment_117955894

Axioms

"that the population whose behavior was modeled should be sufficiently large
that the population should remain in ignorance of the results of the application of psychohistorical analyses because if it is aware, the group changes its behaviour.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychohistory_%28fictional%29

So far, I have read through the first seven novelette's linked above, hope I'm not spoiling the TV series for myself.

But as it is adaptation, which is pulling content from across Asimov's novels. Merging of the 'robot' and 'foundation' stories didn't happen till later books.

Foundation: All Major Changes The Show Makes To Isaac Asimov's Books

Talisman · 29-09-2021 9:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117956325#Comment_117956325

Thanks for that link. It appears that they have changed loads in their tv adaptation, it's hard to see where they are going with some of the changes. I must read the books again before diving into the series.

somuj · 30-09-2021 10:46am

Utter nonsense. How anybody is supposed to know what's going on is beyond me.

Might read the first book. Don't like giving up on Scifi till after the first season.

Talisman · 30-09-2021 1:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958136#Comment_117958136

I don't think you'll get much insight by reading the first book, Foundation. It's a short read but its content deals with events on Terminus and the surrounding systems in the years after the project is established.

From what I've read about the tv series, it's a twist on the story of the Foundation books and built on the material in the Galactic Empire and Robot series of books.

corkie · 30-09-2021 4:40pm

Yes the novelettes, I have been reading (linked previous page). Deal with events from terminus on.

There is a missing link from the wiki.

Second Foundation "...And Now You Don't" Part 3 (Currently reading part 2, which let me know of the 3rd).

It is clear from the early path the series has taken, that it is an adaptation that varies from what is in the first 3 wriiten novels(novelettes).

Source of all again: - https://www.reddit.com/r/asimov/comments/a7wlf5/all_the_issues_of_astounding_science_fiction_in/

Audio Drama instead?

The Foundation series audio drama, 1973, complete (8 parts)

by

BBC Radiophonic Workshop

VinLieger · 01-10-2021 6:47pm

While i loved the 3rd episode, expecially the last days of brother dusk and how the whole cleon cycle works im still not on board with how many changes theyve made,

the latest one giving the foundation access to the psychohistory calculations whether they can read them or decypher them doesnt matter it changes the entire purpose and idea of the plan. Im also assuming Gaal Dornick is off to startup the 2nd foundation

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958136#Comment_117958136

See this is the opinion im expecting from the vast majority of those who are watching it but also haven't read the books. The entire show makes no sense due to a severe lack of exposition so far at least.

Edit: im giving up on trying to get the fecking spoiler tags working, sorry for anyone who gets spoiled but blame the new site being utter trash.

Slydice · 01-10-2021 7:41pm

3: Aaaaaah 🙂 Everything is so Sci-Fi-ey 🙂 The house design

of the warden looks sooo old school scifi

Right so, guessing then that

The Vault could well be Aliens or the empire like the show say.. yeah maybe.. also the thought came to mind that maybe it's a previous civilisations version of Foundation and this is the second time this has happened! That'd be cool.

Guessing that the arrival

of the Anacreons is down to maybe a war kicking off with /within the Empire or.. maybe Gaal ended up over with them and so now they have come to help or hinder

corkie · 01-10-2021 8:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964485#Comment_117964485

Thanks for posting, seriesguide didn't have the episode airing for another few hours.

In PC Browser. To spoil text, look to the icon on the left handside of the typed text. Click on it, then the quote symbol + spoiler icon.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058199126/how-can-i-a-users-guide-to-the-new-site#latest

On the latest episode, I don't want to comment on the theories because of recently reading the foundation trilogy, Anacreons but looks like they are following

the path of the first sheldon crisis

Talisman · 01-10-2021 10:00pm

I have just watched the first two episodes and think it's amazing. They have altered so much but I think they had to modernise the story and make elements futuristic by today's standards. I watched it with my son and it was interesting to get his reaction to the story so far, he picked up on a few things but his speculation about what he thinks is going on is way off the mark so it will be interesting to see how he reacts when things are revealed.

The Vault - it looks futuristic by today's standards which was needed because Alexa/Google/Siri would make the technology stack envisioned by Asimov seem like a cave painting by comparison.

The destruction of the Star Bridge and its fallout is like a callback to what happened 20 years and the resulting 'War on Terror'. I suppose that is one way to get the show to resonate with the audience and catch more people's attention. The original story line would seem banal by comparison.

Daneel/Demerzel - there's so much depth to the character already. I think changing the character to a female works in tandem with the clone emperors setup, the system of government is different so the character is the power behind the throne. There has been no mention of the fact that the character pre-dates the empire by several thousand years. There were a few nice touches like evidence of the Robot Laws when she protected Brother Dusk in the temple without concern for her own safety. However, I'm not sure how the raid at the lab happened with Demerzel present because those weapons didn't look like "phasers set to stun" so the situation was a clear violation of the First Law. A few things that were said to Brother Dawn leave things open to interpretation for future twists/reveals.

Seldon's death:

Seldon had Raych kill him in order to remove himself from the equation, he hadn't expected to be on the ship. There was a device behind Seldon's ear which Raych removed which I presume was some neural transfer tech. It will presumably explain things to Gaal and help to establish Second Foundation.

Salvor Hardin's lineage and the Vault:

Salvor is possibly the daughter of Gaal and isn't affected by the field around the Vault because it's coded for their DNA or perhaps she shares Gaal's mental powers and is able to block it out.

fritzelly · 01-10-2021 10:07pm

I'm confused - why was Gaal ejected off the ship and what has happened to her?

Talisman · 01-10-2021 10:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965322#Comment_117965322

In the books, Seldon didn't travel to Terminus. He started the another project. I think this change to the storyline in episode 2 is to establish the myth of Seldon and also have Gaal establish the second project. I don't want to say too much more because it will spoil the future series.

VinLieger · 02-10-2021 6:50am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964649#Comment_117964649

Good guess and unless they are massively straying from the books your wrong about the vault, the books clearly state what it is prior to it "opening" and i think the changes to it are one of the best adjustments so far especially for a TV show audience.

Your first theory about the anacreons is right, the empire is in serious decay and as we learned cannot be contacted anymore so the outer edges of the galaxy are a law unto themselves now. Also Gaal is not with the anacreons

Tristram · 02-10-2021 10:51am

Very strong start with the first two episodes. Bit of a change of pace with the third but excited to see where it goes.

bnt · 02-10-2021 1:40pm

One central theme from the books that I expect to survive relatively unscathed:

the Vault coming in to play during the forthcoming crisis on Terminus. In the books it's how Seldon intervenes, long after he's dead, to "nudge" the Foundation in the correct general direction. So I expect that he was behind the Vault, and we'll see his face again in recordings.

In the books there was no real mystery about the purpose of the Vault, but in the series to date, there is. To get the Vault created, shipped to Terminus ahead of the "slow ship", then have it set up like that with the Null Field technology, suggests that Seldon had Imperial help. Who do we know who is high in the Imperial ranks, who might be sympathetic to the Seldon Plan? There is more than one possibility.

Minor spoiler: part of the overarching plot of the books (and presumably the 80-episode plan) derives from the limitations of Seldon's Psychohistory approach. It's like a weather forecast: as time goes by, predictions of the future become less accurate, and the chances of something unforeseen become greater. When Asimov was writing these stories, Chaos Theory (including the "butterfly effect") and behavioural sciences (including recent Nudge Theory) were in their infancy, but I think he was aware of them in general terms. In Chaos Theory, complex behaviour can result from a simple setup: it can be completely deterministic (no randomness) but still unpredictable and chaotic. Nudge Theory is about humans can be influenced by indirect, non-confrontational interventions. My memory of the later books is spotty, but I expect the show to lean more on such "human factors" than Asimov did in the 1940s.

corkie · 02-10-2021 4:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117965322#Comment_117965322

As her story-line is different to the books (which include a gender swap) no one knows what the TV Series has planned for her. As decades have now past in Terminus only by the use of cryogenic suspension can we expect to see her again.

the cryogenic suspension could be a smart plot device to allow Gaal to continue to be important to the ongoing narrative in the TV series, allowing her to reemerge decades later.

^^^ https://screenrant.com/foundation-episode-2-ending-explained-gaal-hari-death/

Llobell does feature in some capacity, though. As season 1's narrator, Loubell's voice can be heard at various intervals during episode 3. This is a call back to Dornick's role in the Foundation book series, too, where Dornick ends up being Seldon's biographer.

^^^ https://www.techradar.com/news/foundation-episode-3-recap-the-past-always-comes-back-to-haunt-you

Talisman · 02-10-2021 6:32pm

Demerzel got another level in episode 3, the robot is there because they choose to be and not due to servitude.

Cleon I: I always assumed you'd stay on after I was gone. But it occurred to me, in the near-darkness of my life that I shouldn't take anything for granted.

The conversations with Cleon I and Brother Dusk the day before his ascension have a little hint of the Zeroth Law about them.

To Cleon I: I'm loyal to the Empire.

To Brother Dusk: Empire is always on my mind.

Zeroth Law: A robot may not harm humanity, or, by inaction, allow humanity to come to harm.

The relationship with Cleon I is so much more than with the clones. The clones, Brother Day in particular are out of touch with the Empire. From the previous episode it seems that they only begin to realise their own humanity and question their role in their twilight years. They are really only a shadow of Cleon I.

Brother Day: We are the great dream of Cleon I, not the Star Bridge.

There's more than a touch of hubris to that suggestion.

I wasn't sure how the Salvor Hardin could be a gun wielding character because "Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" is the their motto in the books. The Anacreon occupation of Terminus is a good opportunity to evolve the character.

Forget the Plan. Seldon's gone. When are any of you gonna start thinking for yourselves?

The connection to the Galactic Empire is gone so this is the end of the Encyclopedists cycle and presumably Hardin is going to get the settlers thinking outside the box from this point forward.

Seeing as Seldon's involvement in politics on Trantor was ignored for the series they might avoid that path with Hardin. They could skip over Hardin as Mayor of the settlement and get straight into trading with the other planets of the periphery. I don't recall the Hugo character appearing in the books but the fact that he's a trader helps get the ball rolling and they will now have to sustain themselves without the support of the empire.

corkie · 02-10-2021 7:13pm

Daniel MacPherson's Hugo is another wholly original character for Foundation's TV show. There is no similar character in any of Isaac Asimov's novels.

+

Much like Gaal and Raych's relationship (in episode 2) is a new inclusion in the TV adaptation, so too his Salvor and Hugo's. There's a distinct lack of romance in Asimov's book series early on, so this is the TV series' way of rectifying this.

^^^ Daniel MacPherson's Hugo + romance

02-10-2021 11:59pm

At this stage I think we should add spoilers to the thread title. This is getting hard to read.

corkie · 03-10-2021 9:38pm

Just for the sake of completeness anyone reading the novelettes linked earlier in thread.

You may have notice that there was one missing? 'The Psychohistorians'

The Psychohistorians is the only part of the Foundation Trilogy that was not originally published in Astounding Magazine and was, in fact, the last part of the trilogy that Asimov wrote (though, chronologically, it describes the earliest events). Asimov wrote this story circa 1950 when the series was being prepared for publication in book form by Gnome Press, who felt that the series began too abruptly.

https://asimov.fandom.com/wiki/Foundation

William Shatner reads Foundation by Isaac Asimov Vinyl Side 1

William Shatner reads Foundation by Isaac Asimov Vinyl Side 2

Above are youtube links, but that chapter of the books is included in the audio drama.

JimmyVik · 05-10-2021 11:35am

I cant tell you how much ive been longing for the last 35 years or so for a tv series based on foundation.

I also cant tell you how dissapointed i am with this series after the first 3 episodes. I had such high hopes. Dashed.

Slydice · 05-10-2021 8:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969433#Comment_117969433

I'm in two minds about that.. Not sure if there's enough posts to keep two threads alive but have been thinking of starting a non-book-readers thread.

06-10-2021 9:20am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978703#Comment_117978703

Since the tv show couldn’t film the books as written you were always going to be disappointed.

JimmyVik · 06-10-2021 10:28am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117982267#Comment_117982267

No. Im always happy to see any adaptation and never compare the book to the screen version.

I even liked I, Robot and Bi-centennial man.

But Apples foundation is just drivel dressed up in a tiny bit of nice gfx, disguising cheap sets.

Its so far off the mark.

corkie · 06-10-2021 12:52pm

@JimmyVik Your not alone in not liking this series.

Mixed positive and negative reviews on rotten tomatoes.

David S. Goyer Talks ‘Foundation,’ Taking Liberties With Source Material & Stepping Away From Superheroes [The Playlist Podcast]

JimmyVik · 07-10-2021 12:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983194#Comment_117983194

I think i'll give it the 10 episodes and see what i think then, but usually ive my mind made up on a series by episode 3 or 4 :)

So 4 better be good.

EoinMcLovin · 08-10-2021 12:10am

https://tvline.com/2021/10/07/foundation-renewed-season-2-apple-tv-plus/

----

JP Liz V1 · 08-10-2021 12:28am

Is it worth a look? I don’t know the source material

Talisman · 08-10-2021 10:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991132#Comment_117991132

Like the books upon which the series is based, it's a slow burner. The visuals are great and I'm enjoying how they have adapted the material, but a few people I know that haven't read the books are wondering when the story will begin.

corkie · 08-10-2021 11:08am

Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.

@EoinMcLovin Thanks for posting the renewed link.

Episode 4 out of possible 80.

this is a real slow-burn and with so many episodes still planned by Apple, it remains to be seen whether that slow burn actually has some good pay-off later on down the line.

08-10-2021 1:54pm

This episode was a far better one. Hints of plot lines are coming out and the characters/world building is paying off.

I do not like the cinematography though (of all episodes so far). All these lingering slow shots are meant to build atmosphere but all they really do is slow everything to a crawl and pad the runtime

Doodah7 · 08-10-2021 2:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991132#Comment_117991132

Why are you asking in this thread? It seems to be almost exclusively related to how it compares to the books rather than how it works as a TV series…

mewso · 08-10-2021 2:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117993204#Comment_117993204

Quite right. Except for the posts by people who haven't read the books. I have a crazy theory. Those who haven't read it will evaluate it as a TV show and those who have will compare it to the books. Scans thread. Yep several posts from people praising the show and saying nothing about the books. Mad I know. Confirmation bias comes to mind. I'll refrain from discussing the new episode to spare you my comparisons to the book. As to JP Liz's question. The general consensus in the thread is positive I think. I have misgivings in terms of an adaptation but it is certainly engaging and well made with some good original ideas not from the books. If you like your Sci-Fi you can't really go wrong. It is moving a bit slowly as has been said but that can be a good or bad thing.

fritzelly · 08-10-2021 3:46pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117991132#Comment_117991132

Definitely, but a tad hard to follow

Slydice · 08-10-2021 9:16pm

4: Well that was fun! I was like a Wild Baron Vladimir Harkonnen appears! 😁

Never did have much luck with emporers did that guy! 😁

Looks like they needed a connecting story to help join some dots to the audience.

Feels like maybe Brother Day is gonna go start some fight and come out worse for wear from it.

The reappearance of Gaal so late into the episode felt nice and Aliens-ey

Not sure the Anacreon plan. This show hasn't established enough of a tech footprint for this cannon to mean much so I'd be guessing the leader of the city is gonna walk that head huntress out with that engine part she wants but it'll have been a trick just to get the shields down or something.

corkie · 08-10-2021 10:01pm

How did Salvor Hardin know that it was Seldon's library (on Trantor). She would never have been there?

FE 18 -- Salvor Hardin born on Terminus.

Foundation Episode 4 Ending Explained: Who Finds [SPOILER]?

@mewso Think people are waiting to see where the show is going to make judgements on it?

As a person who has read the books, I'm enjoying the show and interested in how they develop(/fill in) missing content of the source material.

But they should have promoted this show as based on, instead of an adaptation.

Inspired by the short stories and novels of Isaac Asimov

@JP Liz V1 I'm kind of envious of you, that if you choose, you can watch(& maybe enjoy) the show without knowing the source content.

But if you want to see the source, I have linked the 'Foundation Trilogy' in previous post that can be read online (archive.org) or audio drama. (But that is only the bare minimum of the source as content is been pulled from across asimov's works).

mewso · 09-10-2021 11:48am

I agree corkie. Like I said I have misgivings but it's too early to see where they are going even in terms of the adaptation to come down too hard on it either way. My major test is how these crises are dealt with. If it's a cgi battle with explosions then good riddands.

iguana · 10-10-2021 11:39am

I haven't read the books but don't think it's especially hard to follow. I do think that we are being told certain things rather than shown then, like the uprisings on Trantor, the scale of the devastation on Anacrean and Thespin, the beginnings of the loss of control of the outer planets, how/why there is a religious schism on religion planet, etc which are things I'd rather see some of. Not necessarily all of it but these are the cornerstones of the decline of the Empire, so ideally actually seeing how and why at least some of it is occurring would be better than just exposition about it. However, shooting on Foundation had shut down during Covid and then restarted having to follow strict social distancing protocols. Having hundreds of extras having an uprising, listening to a religious leader preaching dissent, scrambling about on a devastated planet, just wouldn't have been possible. This was mainly a Covid production, so I feel that allowances need to be made for that.

I am also curious about why it was only announced to be renewed a few days ago. I started watching this knowing it was renewed, so I suspect that may have changed how I was feeling watching it. It has been a lot easier for me to watch this, giving it time to world build and unfold when I know this is the first season not the only season. S2 was very obviously greenlit and funded months ago given that pre-production has been underway for quite a while with numerous members of the crew back in Limerick for the last few weeks. I think it was a mistake to wait until the show was 3-4 episodes in before announcing it was definitely coming back.

Slydice · 15-10-2021 7:52pm

5: I was like.. hold on.. ye wha..

It felt like the Anacreon plan was to take the empire ship that arrived.. well by the ka-boom.. I don't think there's much of that ship left! I dunno.. maybe they are gonna scavenge parts from the foundation slow ship and the crashed empire ship to just make some other ship that can get by empire defences.

It might be obvious already but given the rest of the story..

I'm guessing Hari is still alive.. Raysh was talking to Gaal through the recording.. They are heading to Haris homeworld as he's probably already there from that special pod he had designed for himself.

Decent backstory this episode for

Gaal

This episode, I really liked the special effects of the

rings around her planet

all the look and feel of this ship she has woken up on

Props to the Set Design Crew and/or the Special effects crew!

mewso · 15-10-2021 9:42pm

Well they went where I hoped they wouldn't and I'm afraid any connection to Asimov and his story is in name only at this point. We just had to have action, explosions, death and destruction as I feared. Some might say well modern audiences yada yada but you know, make something else then. I must be on my own not really enjoying the first 20 minutes of each episode being wasted on here is something that happened in the past that you had probably already guessed about or you didn't really need to know. Anyway very disappointed but if you are enjoying it then great. People mentioned earlier some other books it would be great to see adapted. Not so sure I would like to see that happen anymore. I suppose it can go either way. The Expanse being a positive example.

corkie · 15-10-2021 10:13pm

@mewso

Yea! Didn't really need to know 'Gaal Dornicks' back story, unless they put her back in cryo, she can't be around for future seasons.

And what is happening in Terminus is nothing to do with the books.

I found a source to read the other four books in the series. And my 30 year old memory of key points (/events) was quite good.

The books where kind of repetitive and formulaic, but enjoyed the journey of re reading them. May have look at the robot series next.

^^^ Read them in Published order.

Foundation (Apple) [** SPOILERS **]

Comments

Axioms

Foundation (Apple) [ SPOILERS ]