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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    It's no secret that west Cork would have had a tradition of anti-Treaty Republicanism and one can easily see how many of those Gardai working there in the '90s would have had grandfathers, if not fathers at a push, who'd been involved. I imagine a lot of them wouldn't always have seen eye to eye with the top brass above in Dublin.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Good point about the IRA shadow cast over that area, many people, especially younger generation, don't understand how insidious and deep that influence was, even in 1996.

    I imagine a lot of them wouldn't always have seen eye to eye with the top brass above in Dublin.

    You do know Alfie was a Dub, right?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    So why do you continue to push the narrative that the local Gardai felt a need to cover up for Alfie and Shirley? A Dub and a Londoner. How does this fit in with your anti treaty Republican local Gaurds?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I'm afraid I don't know what you're talking about, as you don't seem to. I have always believed that they knew more than they let on and would like to know why. I find it odd that the Guards appear to have accepted their testimony without anything like the kind of probing they applied to Bailey.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    The thing is the murderer was not worried that he left anything incriminating behind. Either he cleaned up methodically and knew that there was neither fingerprints, footprints nor DNA, etc... or he knew that the police or forensics won't find anything because they were in it as well. Whatever the option of these two suggestions, the killer felt safe, and felt he had nothing to fear.

    The murder was also too violent in nature, that it could have been the result of a crime of passion or something like that. Bashing somebody's head in like this, and multiple times, would either indicate a very strong hate for that person ( for whatever reason which is unknown, but that must have built up over time ), or setting an example to others, sending a message, ( if Sophie was interfering in somebody's affairs ) and also to make sure, she was really dead and gone forever.

    One fact is also certain: The killer must have had blood all over him and his clothes if one considers how often Sophie's head was bashed in. He must have washed up somewhere. If he made it home, he must have either lived alone or done it without the knowledge of his partner/wife, or gone somewhere where he wasn't seen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Notice also the different type of windows. The more recent photo is,in fact, the bottom one. It was taken after the murder. The other photo shows windows that are the older aluminium framed type not the uPvc frames in the latter. The reason why the upstairs window was covered is, I imagine, the house was being painted at the time and this was to prevent spatters staining the glass. The paintwork is more shabby in the other photo obviously because it was taken a long period after. That's my take on it anyway.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I'd like the adults to consider the scenario of 6 or 7 guards/detectives, on maybe Stephen's day '96, looking at each other but not actually saying out loud what each is thinking; it's Alfie and Shirley.

    There are then at least 6 or 7 reasons why that story musn't get out.

    Okay, I'm talking about this. You posted this a couple of days ago. It's one of many that you have made insinuating that the Guards covered up for Alfie and Shirley.

    I just want to know why you think they would have covered up for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    There is one glaring omission in considering why someone might not have been overly concerned about leaving incriminating evidence behind. Because they had been passing by that gate regularly. And that's a number of people.

    "One fact is also certain". You have no basis for the fiction you follow this with. Not only might the clean up have been carried out methodically but so might the killing. For all you know it could have been carried out quite coldly with very little blood spattered on the perpetrator(s) wearing something easily wiped down.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Who knows why? Whoever conducted a review of the original investigation - was it James Hamilton the former DPP? - concluded that pages from these so called jobs books relating to the case appeared to have been carefully cut out and were missing. That is all. We can only speculate why that happened. It could be for some sinister reason or it could be for some innocuous reason. I think there is too much significance attached to the matter.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    I'm not a big advocate for the Garda cover up theory or anything, but I can't agree with this. There is no innocuous reason to remove pages from a book of evidence, a record that the Gardaí know is vital evidence and must not be tampered with. Either they removed those pages because they were incriminating to them or they were aware what they contained would embarrass the Gardaí and potentially limit their career opportunities if the information became public.



  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Ain't that just hard to believe...??

    Run a woman thru the briars, and smash her head in with a block(s), and not leave one iota of evidence at the scene...??

    1996 was a while ago granted, but it wasn't the stone age.

    So not one fibre from a glove, overcoat, scarf, trousers.....??

    Not one print lifted from the gate..??

    Not one stray hair gently swaying in the wind anchored to a briar...??

    Diddley Squat!

    Well, apart from the Doc Martin foot prints, the preferred shoe of the An Garda Siochana...

    Really is hard to believe such a savage killing left no contamination behind... Like the crime scene was forensically sterilized...

    How could that happen I wonder....??



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    You appear to have a difficulty with understanding how positing a theory is used to tease out probabilites. As flanna01 points out we are a long way down the road with a general acceptance of a cover-up. Given that Alfie and Shirley were the only people the Guards knew, for certain, were in the immediate vicinity the murder happened, they could have really hauled them over the coals without much public reproach. There is an insistence by some people here that they were investigated, but on balance of probabilities that was a cursory investigation. I am obviously asking people why that might be. One simple explanation is that Alfie and Shirley were helping the Guards with other things.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I don't know why i replied to you earlier, I must have forgotten that you should be ignored.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Gardaí are rarely stationed in their own province, let alone county or town for obvious reasons.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    No Saabsaab , that may not work.

    You need to find an excuse for your DNA to be found at the scene.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    In 1996 the headline murder was that of Jerry McCabe in Adare, about 10 miles from where he was based in Limerick. He was born 30 miles further along the road near Listowel.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You appear to have a difficulty with understanding how positing a theory is used to tease out probabilites

    You have full on stated that Alfie and Shirley were involved in this murder, either directly or as accessories. I can trawl back and find the quotes if you want.

    That's fine with me, speculation is good, but you want to have it both ways and refuse to defend your position when asked. You seem to be saying now that they were not involved at all.

    Anyway I'm going to leave it at that.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    "I got bitten by a dog that I was minding the previous evening" - is that what you're getting at?



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    No do trawl back and quote back to me where I have 'full on' stated anything of the sort.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    No do trawl back and quote back to me where I have 'full on' stated anything of the sort.

    You did say it, many times and now you are back peddling like a pro




  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    That's very funny. You could have found some quotes quicker. Maybe not.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    I get what you're saying but the trouble is this: There's no public record of Alfie's DNA, or more precisely his blood, being found at the scene. Perhaps you think that he was using the dog story just in case they discovered his blood at the scene? In which case, yes that would make sense, but didn't he tell the Gardaí that he hadn't actually gone closer than 20m to the body? Someone mentioned that here recently though I don't know what the source for that is. If he was expecting them to find his blood at the scene you would imagine he would have said he had a close look at the body.

    There's also no reliable source for the story about the dog bite is there? I've seen it mentioned here and possibly on Reddit, but I don't know where it is recorded anywhere reliable, if it is recorded at all.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think it was the pathologist in the Jim Sheridan documentary who described that the murderer must have had blood all over him, the way Sophie was killed. He was pretty certain about that one. Yes, sure, he could have worn something that can easily be wiped down, and yes the murder could be methodically and planned to the detail. We don't know that. We, or at least I am speculating that it's more likely a planned murder than an unplanned one.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You could have found some quotes quicker

    Glad you admit they are there.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    you're going from risible to puerile, maybe you ought to take your own advice; " Anyway I'm going to leave it at that."



  • Registered Users Posts: 103 ✭✭kerry_man15


    Does anyone find the position of the car unusual in this photo? That's a very strange way to park when you arrive to the house. In fact it would be quick tricky to manoeuvre it into this position if you've arrived from the right. It looks as if it is turned pointing in the direction to leave, did Sophie perhaps try fleeing in her car first?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 931 ✭✭✭flanna01



    Lets examine the after murder scenario:

    More than likely, the assailant was covered in blood. Certainly from the knee's down, and likely his upper body too.

    He either arrived at Sophie's on foot, or drove there.

    If he was on foot, the risk of capture is increased. There is no way he can avoid leaving a trail of blood splatters in his wake... Every blade of grass he walks on, every bush / ditch he rubs off will leave something behind him.

    How does the murderer evade being sighted as he makes his getaway? The roads are way too risky, he'd have to make his escape off road. This is made more difficult given the time of year, scrambling over the moors at night is ridiculous.. You would be leaving footprints and blood splatters everywhere, slip and fall, hey presto, we have a hand print in the mud. I don't buy this escape theory.

    Tyre marks were found at the scene besides the gate.. Along with the infamous Doc martin footprints. It makes more sense to me that the assailant was using a car.

    So he kills Sophie, goes back up to the house for some unknown reason and tries the door (shuts the door to maybe?), returns to the car and makes his escape. No more evidence left once he departs the crime scene.

    The down side of the escape by car, is that he has now contaminated a vehicle that he has had access to, which will directly link him to the murder. So the car is now a burden to him along with the clothes he was wearing at the time.

    We move onwards.. The killer has escaped the scene either on foot or by car, what's the next step?

    Obviously its to get rid of all incriminating evidence. Literally every shred of clothing you have on you, scrub your hands, nails, hair.. everything!. What about the car then?? It has to be deep cleaned on the quiet, can I really get rid of all the blood, what about the residue of blood the eye cannot see? Could there be matching earth on the tyres from Sophie's laneway, did she touch the car, did anybody see me on the road? Did a neighbour notice me coming home at strange o'clock??

    Did the perpetrator live with a partner or family? Did he change somewhere else? Did he confide in a trusted friend that something terrible had happened? Was he helped to conceal his actions? At some point, and with tremendous urgency, the killer had to strip off and change his clothes. He had to shower himself and dispose of his kill suit - Where was he able to do this?

    The Following Day

    As the news spreads of the brutal, savage slaying of the petite non national, the tension must be unbearable for the killer. Everybody is talking about it, the news agency's of the world are arriving in Schull, its the lead story on television, every radio station, camera's everywhere.. Word is filtering through that the big boys from Dublin are on the way down with their jazzy forensic kits... The heat is on.

    The killer has to be affected. His family will see the change in him (if he has one). His friends & colleagues will see the change in him. Did he phone in sick to work that day? Did he break from his usual routine that day? His mind must have been racing with thought of potential mistakes made, how soon before the knock at the door comes? Need to throw a curve ball here..

    A distraction was needed. Maybe to buy more time to ensure a proper 'clean up' had been done?

    The aftermath of the murder is just as murky as the murder itself. The murder occurred somewhere between midnight and 8am, the body was reported at 10am. This leaves an exceptionally tight window to dispose of all materials tying the assailant to the murder. (Not to mention the mindset).

    You have clothes, probably a car, shoes / boots.... A new day is dawning, have to carry on as normal without raising any suspicions?? tick.. tick.. tick..

    Yep - The after murder story is ever bit as complexing as the actual murder.



This discussion has been closed.
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