Why do teachers dispute the two-tier pay scale?

History Queen · 05-10-2021 1:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978135#Comment_117978135

It's not impossible. I just can't see a system that's fair/workable being proposed on this thread.There are so many variables to take in to account. But the suggestion by another poster that any such system could be easily designed and implemented is false.

Lillyfae · 05-10-2021 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979353#Comment_117979353

This thread isn't the authority on work related appraisals. It may not be easy to design and implement, but they have already been designed and are being implemented elsewhere so there's a shortcut already. I don't know why anyone who does an adequate job would argue against it tbh. I find appraisals very helpful and an opportunity to let my manager know which direction I want to take or what I want to focus on.

History Queen · 05-10-2021 2:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979412#Comment_117979412

I'm only arguing against what was proposed. Fair appraisal is welcome.

astrofool · 05-10-2021 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979289#Comment_117979289

I think it's a bit disingenuous to ask that others open their mind while also insisting that a teachers performance can't be rated. You dismiss interviews, you haven't answered questions on soliciting feedback, you can't rate your own colleagues. No one on here is claiming to be an authority on education, but neither are people claiming that the teaching profession can't be rated, it can and has been rated, the best teachers work for the best schools and are rated on impact, they will often get head hunted to move to different schools or will become leaders within the school, all of this being done without tenure being used as the metric. Also, as noted, grades are only one of many metrics that can be used but you seem to rathole on that as an excuse.

You can't or won't even rate your colleagues who you work with every day, what chance have you of rating others? Are you one of the best teachers in the world, or are all teachers a homogenous bloc of people that are all the same as each other?

Look at it this way, your students will be fairly well able to rate the teachers in the school, yes, there will be vendettas there that can skew things, but filter that out and you'd have a rough ranking, ask a professional to go in and get feedback from teachers/students/exam results and they will give a much more accurate ranking and performance can be ascertained from there. But that risks upsetting the status quo and a union teacher would never risk that.

Celticfire · 05-10-2021 3:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117978384#Comment_117978384

One of the first results I came across when looking up This Nord Anglia school that you've touted was answers to the the question...

Nord Anglia schools, anyone have firsthand experience?

They are notoriously bad, and career international teachers with options avoid them. NA, like GEMS, is a McDonalds-type chain of mediocre international schools, purely profit-driven, and in cities with more than one international school, NA tends to attract the wealthy students who can't get into the more rigorous international schools with higher standards and/or entrance exams.

I have been teaching at international schools in Europe for over ten years, and I also have a son, so have been very careful to choose schools with the best academic situation for him. I know many people who have worked at Nord Anglia, and the chain has a terrible reputation among educators. In one city where we worked, the rival international school was purchased by NA, who ran it into the ground. We were friends with multiple teachers there, and so heard and learned a lot about the changes NA made to the (previously not-for-profit) school when they took over. Then we saw this situation repeated with friends in another country.

Admin across the Nord Anglia chain are known to cut many corners for the sake of profit. Grade inflation and appeasement are the standard, at the expense of actually offering high quality education. They are not concerned with best practice, and their campaign is all empty flash and propaganda. They also do not pay enough to attract and retain more experienced teachers.

You can purchase a membership to International Schools Review (google for website) to read anonymous, detailed reviews of various NA schools by teachers.

Avoid, avoid, avoid.

Their advertising campaign is slick, but there is little of substance beneath the dazzle.

History Queen · 05-10-2021 3:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979831#Comment_117979831

How do you suggest that I rate teachers who I have never seen teach? I have no anecdotal evidence of their performance either.

I never said that performance can't be rated. Just not fairly by the narrow metrics you propose. I asked you questions on how to allow for the other areas of school life, some of which I listed, and you didn't answer. Teachers without exam subjects, sen, students with difficult personal lives, teachers teaching to exams but contributing nothing to school life, teachers contributing to school life but not known for achieving high exam results find a system that accounts for the variables, rewards the hard working and penalises the poor performers and I'll support it. After,of course, adequate resources are given to the true issues in education, not wasted on something designed just to measure teacher performance "just cos"

You are welcome to your opinion. I tried to point out the flaws in your argument coming from my knowledge and experienceof the system. You clearly don't agree. I'll leave it at that.

astrofool · 05-10-2021 3:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979945#Comment_117979945

I didn't propose a narrow set of metrics, I consistently said that they should be one of many, because, as you point out, exam results are not the be all and end all for teachers.

But you now agree teachers can be rated, so there has been progress made, the initial point was that tenure was not a good way to award teachers and it seems we have agreement there.

But, if you are so inclined, I would encourage you to go out and illicit feedback about your performance, ask the principal what you could do better, take on feedback from parents (they're very vocal on whatsapp about teacher these days) use that information to your advantage, your colleagues probably won't be, that gives you an advantage over them.

astrofool · 05-10-2021 3:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117979935#Comment_117979935

I mentioned them as reference to another completely private school in Dublin who will have been interviewing teachers based on the merits of the teacher rather than in position because of tenure.

They also likely pay more than the average teacher in a school in Ireland.

But probably don't pay as much as it would take to hire an elite teacher.

But again proves the point that there are better ways of ranking how good a teacher is without ratholing on grades and saying it can't be done, because, clearly, it can and has been done.

I would expect teachers to cling to the current tenure based system due to the sunk cost fallacy where they don't realize they could have been earning more sooner had they gone with a performance based reward system (and realize that the public sector would probably F it all up and make it purely based on grades).

DubLad69 · 05-10-2021 9:26pm

Post primary school teacher here. I don't usually engage with these types of thread but find them quite entertaining.

Someone earlier mentioned that teacher pensions are completley state funded. That is not true, I have a significant amount taken from my salary each fortnight. I think the pension that younger teachers get, is roughly inline with what they pay for it (with the added benefit of it being defined benefit)

I think the dual scales should be removed. At this point my school in Dublin is loosing teachers every year due to the pay not being enough to have a decent standard of living in Dublin. They simply can't afford to stay, when they would be getting the same pay elsewhere in the country with lower costs of living. We are a large school, well known, and great staff moral, yet, we are currently 5 teachers short. We have been trying to recruit teachers since April with no luck.

They are either moving elsewhere in the country, or taking up a more lucrative job in the city in their area of expertise.

I would LOVE if we had a way of genuinely measuring teacher performance. There is not a fair way to do so in a public school though. Private schools can do it to a certain extent, because their main (or only) goal is exam results. In a public school that should not be the main goal, the main goal is the well rounded development of the student. Unfortunately, if a teacher succeeds in this department or not is subjective. You could get school management to broadly put them into categories of above average, average, and below average, but as profits and costs are of no concern to a principal it is unlikely to work.

I know that I would benefit immensely from a performance related pay scales, but it's is just not workable.

blue note · 06-10-2021 7:18am

If you're losing teachers and one of the reasons is that they're moving down the country where they can live much more comfortably in the salary that's an argument for dual scales. It's normal that salaries are higher in the city - in the UK I think public sector are paid more in London and other cities. I think this is generally the case internationally.

That's a reason for dual scales, what you have now is not a reason for it. But the state finance are not in great shape at the moment. I think the national debt is at 220bn at the moment and we're still increasing it. We can't afford to just increase wages, so if you harmonise wages, you'd need to bring the higher paid teachers down and the lower up. That would be fair, but would they agree to it? And if you want to make city living affordable for teachers, would the country teachers be willing to subsidise it?

And it's staggering how ignorant teachers are in relation to how good their pension is. Even for the younger teachers they don't contribute anything like the cost of the pension to it.

06-10-2021 12:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981230#Comment_117981230

That's going to become a big problem in Dublin schools as the ecomomy grows and the city becomes more wealthy. Teachers salaries are not going to be increased by much with the debt and other spending commitments.

It's time a location allowance was given to Dublin schools and bypass the unions.

end of the road · 06-10-2021 7:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977162#Comment_117977162

nothing to do with union anything, it's to do with the issues the other poster mentioned.

you are factually incorrect since unions cannot increase the hours in a day.

123Dublin456 · 06-10-2021 7:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117957936#Comment_117957936

Just to point out, if someone has 30 days holidays plus 9 Bank Holidays, kts not 11 months work.

end of the road · 06-10-2021 7:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117983028#Comment_117983028

a location allowence would be unfair to others doing the exact same job, and bypassing the unions can't be done as ultimately they are going to be involved no matter what, as is quite right where something that is pitting people against each other based on where they live, something that has no place in a small country like ours.

123Dublin456 · 06-10-2021 7:55pm

The key issue here is that a public job does not have other options in the same way as for example a private sector job. No doubt tbe employees with the worst conditions will leave at some stage unless they are promoted. Teaching is a scale and if they start at bottom they will never improve conditions if the bottom is less than those alongside them. That's the crux if it. Keep in mine that similar to other areas of the public sector, issues of pay etc won't matter to the public until it affects the schools and they become short staffed. I have a feeling there will be major shortages similar to now with subs not available but this will be disguised by learning support covering, so the SEN kids will suffer but people will keep moaning about teacher demands etc. At the end of the day people can have all the opinions they want but when there is a real shortage which I do predict in the coming years, there will be a problem.

123Dublin456 · 06-10-2021 7:58pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117958847#Comment_117958847

Wondering if you think all the work is don't inclusive in these hours? Prep, assessment , paperwork , meetings , pupil plans , reports , pt meetings? All while kids are there. Very impressive if they manage that.

06-10-2021 9:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117985467#Comment_117985467

You don't know much do you.

Various location allowances already exist in the public sector, including teaching.

Jeremy Sproket · 06-10-2021 9:54pm

I wonder will the PRSI pension become means tested in future?

IE, those of us who save diligently and who bother to put money into a private pension will be told to sit and swivel if we ask for a state pension.

One thing you can be guaranteed though is that the PRSI aspect of teachers' pensions and other public sector workers' pensions will be unaffected.

They'll probably dip into our pensions and savings in future to fund teachers' greedy demands.

Furze99 · 06-10-2021 10:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117981230#Comment_117981230

Inclined to agree that the dual scale - two tier system should be equalised. The simplest way to do this is to reduce the salaries of the teachers on older terms of employment and counterbalance by raising the salaries of the newer entrants. Fair all round. What's not to like?

Jeremy Sproket · 06-10-2021 10:15pm

I wonder will the PRSI pension become means tested in future?

IE, those of us who save diligently and who bother to put money into a private pension will be told to sit and swivel if we ask for a state pension.

One thing you can be guaranteed though is that the PRSI aspect of teachers' pensions and other public sector workers' pensions will be unaffected.

They'll probably dip into our pensions and savings in future to fund teachers' greedy demands.

Geuze · 06-10-2021 10:17pm

Wages are not going to be cut, that suggestion is completely unrealistic.

Jeremy Sproket · 06-10-2021 10:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986076#Comment_117986076

They should be.

For all, both new and old. A cut of at least €10,000 per anum should be made to all tiers.

The current rate of €37,000 up to €70,000 is exorbitant. It should be €27,000 to €50,000.

Sierra Oscar · 06-10-2021 10:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986083#Comment_117986083

Well they won't be. With wage increases running at over 5% in the private sector in 2021, substantial wage increases for State employees is on the card from next year. That's the reality of things. Private sector wage increases are currently two times those of the public sector according to the CSO. Unions accepted much reduced pay increases during the onset of the pandemic in the belief that wage deflation would set in across the labour market, whereas the exact opposite has occurred.

06-10-2021 11:25pm

You can't compare wage growth between public and private sectors like that.

Increments are not a thing in the private sector but where they are, it's included in that 5%.

But increments are available in the public sector but are never included as part of wage growth. So the 1.5% public sector increase is actually more for the majority when increments are included.

Geuze · 07-10-2021 11:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117986083#Comment_117986083

That suggestion is so unrealistic as to be not worthy of debate.

The PS pay deal, called Building Momentum, to replace the PSSA will deliver the following pay increases.

It runs from 01.01.2021 to 31.12.2022

Oct 2021 = 1% or 500 euro pa

Feb 2022 = the equivalent of a 1% increase in annualised basic salaries through a ‘sectoral bargaining fund’ (see below).

Oct 2022 = 1% or 500 euro pa

https://www.forsa.ie/building-momentum-a-new-public-sector-agreement-faqs/

You will note that 2% or 3% over two years is below inflation, and below wage growth outside the PS.

08-10-2021 8:38am

Did you not see the comment I just made. It is not 2‰ or 3‰, it is more when you include two years of increments as well.

Still lower than growth outside the PS granted, but please don't throw around tiny single digit percentages as if that's all they are getting.

Geuze · 08-10-2021 6:00pm

Yes, many PS will get an increment, yes.

But of course, many PS are at the top of their scale, so no increments for them.

byhookorbycrook · 08-10-2021 6:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117977124#Comment_117977124

How do you choose to measure ability? Exactly , please, not some vague suggestion? How do you plan to test things like PE, SPHE? Drama?Music? Or do you just plan to test the 3 Rs And if a child hasn't been at school for over half the year, is that the fault of the teacher? What about the child who has suffered a traumatic event during the year or the one who is a nervous tester?

byhookorbycrook · 08-10-2021 7:02pm

To those who think that a car park being full is a measure of after-hours work by teachers don't seem to realize that we usually choose to bring our work home, for various reasons. I do all my notes online, so can access them from anywhere.

The heating budget means heat is only on for a small portion of the day , when it does go on and certainly not after hours. At present, with windows open, the rooms are already cold.

In certain cases,it has happened that some parents , knowing the teacher is on site, don't collect their children on time, meaning the teacher is, in effect, child care and can't get on with their own work. My record was having to remain with a child two hours after a match (already played out of school hours)because the parent was shopping in Dublin. The parent pulled up down from the school gate , beeped the horn and shouted at the child to run down to them, to avoid talking to me.)

Security may be an issue in the evenings.

Teachers have their own families and choose to go home to look after them , then do their school work later in the evening.

byhookorbycrook · 08-10-2021 7:09pm

Pension wise, I have been paying into mine since I was 20. I haven't had a choice.

08-10-2021 11:10pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994651#Comment_117994651

You don't have a choice in the type of pension you get either. You know the type, the type private sector workers don't get to choose.

byhookorbycrook · 09-10-2021 10:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117995864#Comment_117995864

And yet, many private sector people refuse to start a pension, citing that they can’t afford it !

I didn’t have any choice and literally ( in the proper meaning of the word ) had to live on beans on toast in a crappy “ flat “ in a dreadful midlands town for a number of years while private sector friends enjoyed a far greater standard of living AND saved towards mortgages..

Don’t tell me about how I’m getting a “ gold plated “ pension , as if it’s totally paid from the public purse and my sacrifices from more than 40 years .Let’s ensure everyone has to pay into their pension from day 1.

their em

Why do teachers dispute the two-tier pay scale?

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