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Accepted greed from certain groups

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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    An 80 year old blind women deserves to be taken advantage of is what you are saying. If you read the opening post you would know that this is about why people accept greed from certain people but go crazy about other groups. So it seems you have no empathy and some what psychotic beleiving people should be taken advantage of and not protected.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,495 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    i read a couple of months ago a story about the mica crisis in donegal, and the article stated something along the lines of 'even establishing there's an issue is ruinously expensive, a visual inspection costs €500-€1000 (i think!) and that will only be indicative; actual lab tests to confirm the mica issue will cost up to €5000 (also from memory)'; but interestingly the journalist didn't ask why a visual inspection could cost €500 or lab tests that much.


    will see if i can find the article.

    edit; found this one:

    "The Donegal TD said many families were precluded from the current scheme because they had to have an engineer’s report which cost up to €7,000 to enter the scheme."

    also

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/protests-in-mayo-and-donegal-over-shortfall-in-pyrite-redress-scheme-1.4572789



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    I have indeed been involved in Purchase Ordering and timesheets etc. Maybe you are the honest one, but I have first hand witnessed the waste, inefficiencies and devious nature of consultancies. I also know that when times are a bit slack, government departments are a sitting duck for being convinced that they need a few more bodies. And I know that on every project I ever worked on, at least 20% of the people could have been shelled and nobody would have noticed, but hey what's 1k a day amongst friends or the tax payer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Nope. Prices didn't go up for him. It in a franchise so they have different pricing models so city centre will be pricing A, suburbs pricing B and rural pricing C. THe franchises have to sell certain staples at the same price but they can apply higher or lower on other goods dependent on the local factors. He moved to city centre higher prices model A. Worked with retail software and friends work for the franchise systems. He moved to the higher city centre prices in the suburbs. He also raised the prices with the existing stock. When you do certain jobs you notice things others don't. He raised his prices because he could.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,325 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    Yes, that is what I am saying. Her age and circumstances do not make her special or unique, and if you genuinely consider her incapable of making decisions then you should have arranged the job/ price yourself and not left it up to her.

    Do yourself a favour and look up the meaning of “psychotic” because your great attempt at insulting me made no sense.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,495 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    The electrian that said the cost to move the sockets was going to be so expensive because he had to chase the wall and rip up the entire floor. Didn't chase the wall and lifted one floor board. Asked how much was that now and he said the same price as before. That is not supply and demand

    in 2012 i sold a house and due to some faff with the land registry, it had to be re-entered into the database (something to do with merging of databases). i was recommended a surveyor who would come out to the house and redraw it; €250.

    he rang me a few days beforehand and asked 'have there been any changes made to the house?' - i'd knocked a shed in the back yard and removed the knackered porch. 'grand so, i'll just remove them from the drawings and resubmit, no site visit required'. his back got up *very* quickly when i asked what the new price was - i.e. if it was €250 when a site visit was required, what was it now none was required? he actually said to me 'well now, you're making a lot of money from selling this house so don't expect things to be cheap'.

    i was actually losing €100k on it from purchase price to sale price.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    I love the way everybody accuses plumbers / electricians / chippies of price gouging.

    The same people would turn their nose up at it if young Oisin or Fiachra said he was going to do a trade instead of going to college.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You are dead right I accidentally used the wrong term you are a sociopath. Her age and condition make her vulnerable never said unique. If you live in a world where you think vulnerable people should be taken advantage of you are a sociopath. That is not an insult that is a realty of what you are reporting to believe. If you can indicate you understand that nobody should be taken advantage of then you aren't a sociopath. Were you ever taken advantage(not sexual) of as a child? Most people were and remember the feeling and don't want others to feel that way if you are missing that part of understanding you have the issue



  • Posts: 1,263 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As me granny used to say "A greed accepted is a greed shared and a greed shared is a greed halved and a greed halved isn't greed at all. Now F*ck off."



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    Because of the price gouging connotations of the job bother them or they don't want them to damaging their bodies. My cousin is a tradesman as is my BIL. One of them never wore the safety gear and has chronic back pain and needs his knees to have surgery. It's a nasty business really so I have some sympathy for what they do to themselves. Most plasterers die of heart attacks from having their arms in the air so much when plastering ceiling as the heart is under so much strain pumping blood above the heart for so long. In saying that many take shortcuts causing these issues such as the bad knees from not wearing knee pads.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 12,493 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    If your mother is 80 and blind and let some in and said come back tomorrow without any discussion of price or even asking for a price or realising she might need support from her family, then she was taken advantage of, and not only should you have a chat with the person who did the job you should be talking to the Garda. There are people who take advantage of vulnerable people, but that is a completely different issue than the supply and demand issue within trades.

    What's even stranger with your story is that she has family in trades and she did not use a contact her family might have for the job.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    So you personally take part in overcharging and are also complaining that it happens. Strange view. There is no reason to question my honesty but there is for you as you are at least admitting to being dishonest in one way. I couldn't do that and respect myself. I have seen incompetence cost a lot of money and gouging by some very large consultant companies but I won't work for them as a result. One place I worked the large consultancy company mistook me for his contractor and complained I was leaving on time and they couldn't charge the client as much if I kept doing that. I had to explain to him I worked for the client specifically to make sure they weren't overcharging. Saved the client half a million easy as the PO told me all the ways I should be working to overcharge the client. Never seen such an own goal in my life.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,325 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    It is irrelevant what I am or what I am not.

    Your mother and (to a larger extend) yourself allowed for this to happen. So accept it and deal with it differently next time, instead of lamenting over the evils of this world.



  • Registered Users Posts: 196 ✭✭JimmyAlfonso


    Cop on, years to learn how to put in a pipe in some Russian gulag was it! Every career has a learning curve be it trade or office based but he gouged a vulnerable person plain and simple.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    What is strange about relatives not living near each other or being in other trades than that needed? I don't know how old your parents are but the dynamics change and they are not likely to ask for help if they think they can do it without any help. Your parents aren't suddenly going to decide that they need to be looked after and that they are more like a child then a parent to their own children. They can also feel a lot of shame when taken advantage of and hide the details or never let you know. I would have done the job myself if I knew she wanted it done, she didn't tell me as she wanted to surprise me that she could organise a new floor before my brother visited. She asked around and a neighbour recommended the guy. People know what he did and he has certainly lost a lot of work as a result. Elderly parents are not easy to deal with



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    No it is relevant when your view is so out of kilter with society norms. You seem to know and accept what you are and want me to take/accept your view. I will not take your view and I will point out it is so flawed. Laws are there saying the exact opposite of what you think. The broken toy doesn't know it is broken but you know others disagree with your view and you are a minority but think yourself right anyway. No need to point out your distorted view again we know what it is and how irrelevant it is.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,159 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    I was quoted €6k-€12k to redo a bathroom 12 years ago. I bought everything myself including tools it took me 2 days on my own and cost €2k in materials and tools. Each quote had materials at least double the actual costs.

    I did similar myself 15 years ago and whatever about the labour/expertise cost I found the same price gouging at work on the materials front. Double the price was the best of it and I wasn't buying at trade prices where the differences would be even greater(I even bought in some materials from overseas which made an even bigger difference minus the "Paddy tax" on some materials here). A mate of mine got his bathroom done recently and he was ripped off just as badly on materials. There seems to be a fixed general cost of doing a jacks in the trade judging by the quotes he got.

    After my mum died I used to drop in on a good friend of hers who lived on her own for a chat and to keep an eye on her and she had gotten a quote from a plumber to fix her toilet which was a few hundred quid. So I had a look. The ballcock in the cistern was wonky, so off to B&Q, turn off the mains, drain the attic tank, bit of a fiddle about, replace ballcock(I think it cost me a tenner), turn mains back on, job done, cup of tea to finish. Half an hour maybe? No rocket surgery required.

    A large element is how Irish people's lives have changed in the last few decades. People are much more likely to be working longer and harder and have other distractions in their downtime so we're more time poor and have less inclination to do DIY compared to previous generations, so we "get a man in". There can also be an element of Trust the Experts going both ways. My friend above would be sort of an example of that. He considers himself an expert in his field and is to be fair, and charges accordingly, even for the most mundane stuff, so he sort of expects that in return as part of the social contract. Even when the guy tasked with fitting said jacks has screwed up in the past he will always make excuses for him and the prices he charges. Almost as if to question his expertise and pricing would spread and make people question his kinda thing. There can also be an element of snoobery going on too for some. That they wouldn't lower themselves to dirty their hands with "trade" work. IMHO that particular demographic deserved to be ripped off.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,328 ✭✭✭SAMTALK


    I dont think this is as much to do with snobbery as the fear of a recession and how these trades are always 1st hit. Most parents of college age kids remember what it was like and how people had to leave Ireland for work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,325 ✭✭✭Jequ0n


    I couldn’t care less if you accept my view or not. I simply find it incredible how you manage to disregard any personal responsibility in this situation. It’s a classic symptom of the victim mentality, by which all the blame has to lie entirely with others.

    Go on and keep banging on how society should work whilst knowing that it is nothing but an ideal. I am sure the next person will give your blind mother a written quote, which will make all the difference.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭dennyire


    I remember years ago doing a survey of a building in Camden Street. We were to meet the guy outside at 11 am and it was p**sing rain.

    No sign of him at 11 so we were getting soaked.

    I said to my colleague at 11,05 add 100 to price

    Still no sign of him at 11.15 and another 200 added to price

    He eventually arrived 11,30 and price had gone up 500 and we were both soaked.

    Told the client after he paid and I would say that was last time he was late for appointment



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,009 ✭✭✭fatbhoy


    I have to agree with Ray Palmer about the exorbitant prices trades-people are charging.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭dennyire


    Edited to add this was a business client.....not a private client



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    I laughed a bit at "most plasterers die of heart attacks"


    Absolute utter tosh, particularly the laughable reason why



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭silliussoddius




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    I'm not the one paying the bills nor am I the one doing the charging. I just know how much a consultants time costs per day and I know full well (as I'd suspect you do if you are being honest) that there's a layer of bloated waste on every project. If you don't, well maybe open your eyes and ears because it is all around you if you work for a consultancy.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,114 ✭✭✭PhilOssophy


    Were trades hit by the dot com bubble bursting? Were there not engineers/architects/etc who also had to emigrate? In addition, you are basing the "fear of a recession" on the one time when our construction industry reached a crazy unsustainable level.

    I agree with Ray Palmer that it is very hard work (and I wouldn't do it) but the key is to know when your body needs a break. I know tradesmen who are burnt out by 50 but they've worked 60-70 hours a week chasing more money and more jobs. And as Ray also says, its as much to do with a poor attitude to safety/PPE which has some people broken.

    I have also known people who by 50 have their money earned and can basically retire or take a far less physically taxing job.

    If my kids tell me they want to do a trade, I will tell him to go for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik




  • Registered Users Posts: 18,552 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    What happened there is called elder abuse. That tradesperson was no better than knackers who go to the door of an older person spin them a story get into the house and robs them. At the end of the time as a tradesperson he knew the rules. He should have given a quote. That is why now solicitors and financial providers have codes of practice when dealing with the elderly.

    To the poster who mother it happened to report it to the Gardai, find a pub or restaurant where he goes to a d confront him about it.

    At the end of the day what's a fair charge 60-70+ vat/hour, 25-30 for the quotation and 50-60 for material 200-250 would have seen him well paid 300 tops.

    Slava Ukrainii



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,059 ✭✭✭silliussoddius


    Isn’t the state technically one of the biggest landlords?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,394 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    You are the one knowingly processing an exaggerated bill. If you are just saying there are more people than needed so costs are too high that is different to overcharging. Main reason being the contract at the start agrees how many people and how much will be charged and the client agrees and takes that offer. It does mean being charged more than possible both parties agree this based on their analysis. A fair system. Most bloat I see is to deal with inexperienced staff on the client side, why companies think a person doing a job is suddenly able to test software because they know what happens at present is madness. No training in IT or basic information on how to run tests and they are the client point of contact for the real detail. Certainly have seen big development companies drop barely system test code on clients and run out the warranty to charge for huge fixes. Private and public companies fall for this all the time but it is really their own fault for not training their staff to save pennies while costing the project millions. There nearly needs to be another level of consultants to check out the processes between client and consultants.

    IT standards have progressively got worse over time as the people developing don't even know they are making mistakes or even some basic terminology. Genuinely worked with a developer that didn't know the icon for saving was a floppy disc. That isn't just an age thing if you work in IT



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