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Murder at the Cottage | Sky

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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    it would be easier to reverse into that spot, than reverse out.

    there was/is a turning/parking space just across the lane;




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Sorry, I misunderstood your dog-bite reference,

    it's not to do with Alfie,

    it's about putting yourself at the scene before the event, to account for any evidence that might be found after the event.

    you were in a discussion earlier ,page 240 I think.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    That parking spot behind sophies house is a small triangle area see landdirect.ie and at the moment is being contested, reviewed, questioned on the web site...



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    It has come up before about the position of these houses in relation to the Dunmanus coast road. With good local knowledge one could make it from Sophie's to that road in 10 or 15 minutes via Alfie's or the other house which was(or was it?) unoccupied at the time. I can see how some people might consider that these houses are very well located.

    The DPP believed something was happening on the night of the murder due to a number of reports from people in the area of dogs being uneasy. There was a lot of daylight activity with fencing going on in different places. But the investigators weren't interested. Nothing to see here!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    A little over 500m... Looked at it with google road map... there's a couple of entrances on that road and just looks like a good hike to me..

    Stone walls visible so I presume used for rough grazing/ herding.... 5 minutes tops for me, if scouted out a bit in daylight....



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    Leaving the scene of the crime without being noticed by somebody - as distinct from leaving a trail of bloody evidence behind - would be almost guaranteed night or day. If you know the particular area and have ever been there in mid-winter you would understand why. The chance of you encountering another human being, even in broad daylight, would be remote indeed. If the killer was local he would be aware of that and would be confident enough to even return to the scene and remove evidence if he wished, again even in daylight. Sophie's house was unoccupied, for obvious reasons, as was the house to the left of her's and the entrance gate not visible from Foster's.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,525 ✭✭✭Curious_Case


    Perfect analysis of the most important considerations in the aftermath.

    It got me thinking though, perhaps this wasn't actually a frenzied attack but a successful attempt to kill without any significant transfer of forensic material?

    Hit victim with object, object is now bloodied so discard it and progress to a "clean" object, repeat as necessary.

    This would give the impression of a frenzied attack but it's really an attempt at avoiding any transfer of material and would mean that there was no initial dragging or punching but obviously some means of control (threat of being hit by something?) would have been necessary.

    Nevertheless, someone as calculated as this would still be very aware of all your considerations and would not allow themselves to be complacent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername



    The only part I can't get my head around in this scenario is;


    "So he kills Sophie, goes back up to the house for some unknown reason and tries the door (shuts the door to maybe?), "


    Why would he trek back to the house to try the back door and having found it locked not go round to the front door?

    To turn off the lights? where are the switches?

    To make sure the house was empty?

    There was no evidence of anyone being in the house.

    From the crime scene photos, the front door was closed but unlocked (on the latch) with the keys in the lock,

    the back door was locked shut , so it stands to reason Sophie left by the front door.

    I believe an altercation took place by the Eastern gable - the car park, a bloodied Sophie fled towards the back of the house

    and tried to get in the back door, forgetting the door was locked.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Ther can be no innocuous reason for tampering with evidence. An entire investigation can be undermined if it can be shown that evidence has been tampered with.

    In a regulated industry if a person wants to 'delete' something that was entered in error they don't simply remove pages. The error is marked with a strikethrough, dated, signed and annotated as to the reason for it being 'deleted'. what is 'deleted' remains on record and the date, person and reason for its deletion.

    The integrity of records relating to a criminal investigation need to be treated with a similar strictness. Several pages of records relating to a critical point in a criminal investigation don't simply remove themselves. No stone should have gone unturned in identifying who had access to the jobs books in question, who removed the pages in question, and for what reason. I don't think too much significance can be attached to the deliberate tampering with evidence and records. It is central to the integrity of an investigation.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    I think any attack at the house has always been far-fetched as there is too little blood. I have doubts about Alfie and Shirley's story, both going to Sophie's for whatever reason after her body was discovered. It could of course be innocent with one of them having touched something at the scene getting blood on the back of a gloved hand which was later transferred to the door. It could be that the Guards told them to keep quiet about it as it didn't fit the story they wanted to tell about what happened.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think, I've wrote something similar before. This is why I think that the murder must have been coordinated and planned, rather than unplanned. This is also why I think that the murderer was most likely not a local, and if he was local and from that peninsula, he would have been single as he would have had to hide his emotions after the murder and anybody who knew him, must have noticed. I think that German musician would have been single? That "Frenchman" who apparently lived in the area, I don't know?

    I am still mostly inclined to go with the "husband hiring a hitman" motive, as well as with the "drug ring police involvement" motive as a speculative theory rather than with Bailey.

    The only place where Bailey could have washed up properly, changed clothes without being seen would have been his studio. He could also have disposed of his clothes, shoes, etc. Bailey also had family of Jules around later on that day as far as we know. Bailey would also have to have hiked, and not borrowed Jule's car. The only thing that bothers me here, is the fire Bailey had behind the studio. It's not any evidence, but an indication.

    I strongly disagree with the statement that Sophie's house "was difficult to find for somebody who isn't local". This statement may only apply to somebody who doesn't know Ireland, never been to Ireland, and possibly only lived in the US for all of his life or has no sense of direction at all. Somebody who planned this murder would have found it with ease.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    It's been established that the Gardaí reported that the front door was also locked. The crime scene photo shows the door on the latch, but this has been attributed to the Gardaí themselves to allow access in and out after the fact.

    Don't know how the Gardaí gained access to the house if it was locked. Perhaps there were no keys in the back door lock and Josephine Helen let them in.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    Could it have been contested at the time of the murder and still not resolved ?

    The part with the shed is not part of Alfie's property on the map either,

    He laid claim to it even though Sophie owned her house before Alfie bought his,

    The estate agent told Sophie it was her property when he sold her the house .



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,775 ✭✭✭lintdrummer


    Okay, I thought you were hinting at Alfie. But I'm not sure I understand your point... are you implying that some evidence was explained away in this manner? If so, which evidence?



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,695 ✭✭✭chooseusername


    I believe the state the front door lock was found in caused confusion, with some interpreting " on the latch" as locked.

    The photo shows the keys in the lock with the latch pulled back i.e. in the unlocked position.

    Which would be the state of the lock when the Gardaí arrived at the scene.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,339 ✭✭✭TheW1zard


    The car park space is owned by the third house, so if its being contested it wasnt by Alfie.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,128 ✭✭✭chicorytip


    What sort of information did these "jobs" books normally contain, I wonder? Interviews with suspects or witnesses were transcribed or recorded separately. A "jobs" book, given it's title, might contain details of staff rosters and duties or names and addresses of callers to the station and details of their queries or business. If that were the case then, yes, I could see how crucial information pertaining to the investigation could be gleaned from perusing them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    Sophie parked her car in the space owned by the 3rd house. Sophies house did however have its own parking area at the other gable end of the house - this is the space that appears to be contested. That is the space between Sophies and Alfies houses. Alfies house was recently up for sale so perhaps this is the reason the ownership query is raised now.

    There certainly seems to be alot of issues surrounding property ownership and boundaries - between the 3 owners and others using the land for grazing . I wonder did the gardai even look into this as been a motive. These issues can be explosive between people and can get out of control very quick.



  • Registered Users Posts: 662 ✭✭✭mamboozle


    "It's been established that the Gardaí reported that the front door was also locked." This sounds like a certainty. Where is the evidence for this assertion?



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    The 3rd house - owned by the Richardsons I believe. It was a holiday home and wasnt in use by the owners in December 1996 so I know they were not involved.

    Is it possible though that someone was hiding out there. Was this house searched?

    We've heard nothing about this house at all even though its very close to Sophies - her house was in the middle between Alfies and the Richardsons. This house would have had a good view of Sophies house.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I had a thought about that house as well. Especially since Sophie complained somebody using the bathtub in her absence, chances are somebody had done the same in the house of the Richardson's? The locks of these doors are most likely not high security and can be picked with ease. However that's speculation as well. The killer would have had real balls to hide in the Richardson's house while the police where around the murder scene, him hoping that he doesn't get discovered.

    I don't know if that house was searched, but I am sure, the police would have investigated, whether the house had been lived in or not during the time of the murder. That is, if the police can be trusted the way things went in this case......



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,160 ✭✭✭crackcrack30


    How do you know that it was Alfie that laid claim to the shed?..



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,958 ✭✭✭Deeec


    I dont think they would have stayed in the house after the murder but they could have hid out there before the murder if it was planned. It also could have been used to clean themselves up before fleeing the seen.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I find that theory highly unlikely. Disposing of the bloody clothes would have been an challenge, a fire would have been noticed, burring it would also leave tracks, and carrying it would have been too suspicious, also there was no car parked there. So if somebody was hiding in there, he must have arrived on foot. However it's a possibility worth investigating, or at least 25 years ago it would have been for sure. Don't know if the Richardson's still own the house or if there are new owners.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,459 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    In its report, GSOC says it is most concerned with pages that went missing from the original garda ‘jobs book’ while in the custody of gardaí.

    Garda jobs books are meant to contain an entire record of the progress of a major investigation, outlining all actions undertaken by gardaí and the reasons that these actions were raised.

    “This concern is compounded further by the fact that the specific pages missing are from an area of the book when Ian Bailey seems to have first been identified as a potential suspect in the murder by gardaí — and, as such, they are potentially very significant,” says the report.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes a thought I’ve had before is that the murder took place around 2 a.m. (when the screaming was heard) and that the murderer returned to the scene of the crime later that morning and potentially disposed of the wine bottle, and was seen speeding away at 7.30



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I think the only way this case will be solved is by digging deeper and deeper into generic Garda corruption in that area until the whole facade comes crumbling down. Unfortunately it always takes some massive scandal to make politicians do anything, (let's have a 7 year enquiry so it all blows over and then do feck all about it), and we don't have any investigative journalists in this country worthy of the name, journos just want to be twitter celebrities these days. You do need someone like Gemma O Doherty, not afraid to stand up and rattle some sacred cages, but unfortunately she appears to have left the realms of reality behind her lately.

    Also the publishing business is completely part of the establishment here so there will be no worthwhile investigative books commissioned or published any time soon.

    The local Gardai who dealt with this case have the answers to a lot of our questions. But I don't know who is going to ask them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,159 ✭✭✭saabsaab


    Clothes could have been disposed of in other ways than burning. What if they were buried or hidden in an attic or shoved down a well? No need to carry them or burn them if you are based locally. Using the house to clean yourself up before making your way across the hills or wherever. Such a person could have picked a lock, found a hidden key or had a copy from another time.

    It is possible they are still hidden there along with the axe waiting to be discovered.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,134 ✭✭✭jimwallace197


    Yes, this is bang on in my opinion, as detective Dwyer says, the answer lies in the locality, more likely lies in the force he was a member of. The only thing that makes sense when you look at all the main aspects of the case is a garda coverup or unbelievable incompetence. Incompetence on a scale I don't believe we've seen before. So if one or the other are true, how could we possibly trust them to have followed up properly on all the other aspects of the investigation, proper questioning of potential witnesses, collection of DNA from people in the community. The truth is, is that we can't & when we cant trust our police force to have done even a reasonable job, it throws absolutely everything else into doubt.

    There is one main reason why this case hasnt been solved, its not luck, its not the time of year, its not the differences in our legal system over the French, its not the white lady she supposedly saw, its down to the gards who investigated this case.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,391 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    It's not impossible, what you're describing. If somebody is careful in the house, the Richardsons would never have known that somebody was in the place during their absence. That axe was never located, I think?


    As far as I know there is no statute of limitations for murder. The thing is also 25 years is a long time. It's hard to say where one has been 25 years ago on a certain night between the hours so and so. Also if it was Garda cover-up, what were they covering up for and why? The sexual intentions of their fellow officer from Bantry, or their involvement in drug trafficking?

    Other speculative thoughts: Would this murder be the "handwriting" of the IRA? or Hutch? or Kinahan, if a firearm wasn't to be used? Can they be ruled out without doubt?



This discussion has been closed.
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