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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Why is the SDLP getting so agitated by Frost saying that is was not acceptable that trade between NI and ROI was increasing and trade between GB and NI was decreasing, and that this needed sorted?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Many on here are trying to tell us that the UUP are a moderate reasonable party and that it is the DUP and TUV who are gurning about the protocol. Here is the UUP deputy leader being fairly clear

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1445004571089285120



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    Is Jonathan Buckley not a DUP MLA or have you put up the wrong link? Robbie Butler is Deputy Leader of the UUP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08


    This explains what they are thinking: https://www.4ni.co.uk/northern-ireland-news/278910/other-news-in-brief

    Matthew O'Toole MLA said: "To hear David Frost rail against the EU is nothing new, but to hear him state clearly and coldly that he wants to damage north-south trade and stop Northern Ireland's growing exports to the EU single market is sickening and chilling. It is clear Frost isn't looking for solutions to smooth the flow of goods from GB into NI – which we all want to see – but is determined to destroy the unique economic advantage that Northern Ireland now has.

    "We have been among the least productive regions in these islands for most of our history. Brexit has posed huge threats to our society and economy, but the dual market access under the Protocol offers us a rare and unique opportunity to be at the crossroads of two major markets. As Lord Frost himself acknowledged in his remarks, the statistics show that trade from NI to the Republic is increasing positively – but he wants to end that.

    "To hear a British minister state coldly and clearly they want to harm our small chance at prosperity is utterly shocking, though hardly surprising. Unionist politicians should now be clear that the upshot of what they are asking for is damage to the Northern Ireland economy they profess to care about so much."



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes. In fact NI-RoI trade is booming, and there is some suspicion that part of the reason may be GB-RoI trade being routed through NI to avoid checks and controls. (Direct GB-RoI trade has fallen significantly.) But, two things about this:

    1. We don't know this for sure; it's just a suspicion. While we have good data on NI's trade with RoI (and the rest of the EU) we have very poor data on NI's trade with GB, because the UK doesn't compile or collect that data. (Which, incidentally, will be a problem for them if they want to invoke Art 16 on the basis that there has been "diversion of trade" between GB and NI).
    2. It's not necessarily the case that people are routing goods from GB to RoI via NI in order to import goods that are non-compliant or that would be turned away at Dublin port or whatever; what they are doing may not be in any sense cheating, or improper. They may simply find that it's quicker or cheaper or both to import via NI because the relatively light checks operated GB-NI are less onerous or less time-consuming than the fuller checks operated at Dublin Port. This would be the flip side of RoI (and indeed NI) exporters avoiding the landbridge route to the mainland and exporting by direct sea routes instead; a natural and expected response to the burdens imposed by Brexit.
    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The stated object of the NI Protocol is to protect and support the GFA. An explicit objective of the GFA is to enhance North-South links. To the extent that the Protocol leads to more trade between NI and RoI it is therefore doing exactly what it is supposed to do. That Frost sees this as a problem is very telling.

    It's more understandable that Frost is unhappy about reduced NI-GB trade, but Frost is not entitled to use his office to deal with things that he personally is unhappy about; he needs to justify his unhappiness by reference to the NI Protocol. The GFA is silent about protecting or enhancing GB-NI links, so a reduction in GB-NI trade is no way a problem so far as the GFA is concerned. I've already told you what the Protocol had to say about GB-NI trade, though you found it insufficiently succinct to read. But I'm afraid if you want to understand why people find Frost's position here problematic, you're going to have to grapple with what the NI Protocol actually says.

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    Can't get behind the paywall but this commentator is throwing a bit of fuel on the fire, groan.


    https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/business/northern-ireland/reunification-of-ireland-is-close-says-top-economist-posen-40920667.html



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    it seems that GB->NI->ROI imports should be better for the importer than GB->ROI imports.

    is there anything to suggest that Irish exporters would find any advantage to exporting ROI->NI->GB over exporting directly ROI->GB.

    does Ireland therefore have an advantage in importing, exporting or both over all the other EU countries, as we could use NI as a go-between?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,229 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Given that GB aren't really bothering to check stuff coming from the EU (or hasn't the resources to check it), I don't think it matters what route it takes.

    As for whether it would be easier to export via NI, that is an Ecumenical matter. As the UK aren't really performing checks, we don't know. However, in theory, it should be the same level if the British government are actually serious about protecting their borders - but they're not as we all know!



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Is this what it ‘actually says’. I am listening to others and haven’t read it in detail myself. Could you confirm or deny that this is what it says.

    ““If the application of this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, **or to diversion of trade,** the Union or the UK may unilaterally take appropriate safeguard measures.””



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Yes major boob there by me. You are 100% correct.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭✭jm08




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    What Seth said. At the moment the UK is not imposing any kind of checks or controls on imports from the EU, so there are no checks or controls that can be avoided by routing imports via NI.

    But this is only a temporary state of affairs. The UK keeps pushing back the implementation date on which they will start imposing checks and controls because, obviously, when the do, the consequences will be politically unpopular - more shortages, supply disruptions and price rises. But they can't put it of for ever because allowing EU uncontrolled imports from the EU/EEA but not from third countries is (a) unfair to the third countries, and (b) illegal under WTO, and at some point the third countries are likely to get shirty about it. "Third countries" here includes the US, and all the countries with which Brexit Britain hopes to do exciting, innnovative, world-beating new trade deals, so it's not like their concerns can be entirely dismissed.

    So, at some point the UK will start to control imports from the EU, and at that point there may then be an advantage for Irish exporters in routing their exports to GB via NI. But it's all very speculative; it depends on how burdensome the UK checks and controls are, whether the UK takes any steps to impose checks and controls on imports into NI that are then re-exported to GB (which, under the Protocol, they would in principle be entitled to do), and other unknowns. And of course even if there is some advantage in routing via NI, there is additional delay and cost, so it still might not make sense for many exporters. We won't really know until it happens.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The lack of clarity that people complain about is, what exactly is meant by "diversion of trade"? There's no definition or explanation in the document itself.

    A literalist interpretation would say that, if any trade transaction is altered in any way in response to the NI Protocol, the condition is satisfied, but that would absurd, and in interpreting legal documents (and this is a legal document) the courts generally rule out absurd interpretations as, well, absurd. The principle here is that you're looking for the joint intention of the parties, and it's wildly unlikely that something so absurd is what the parties jointly intended.

    Similarly, for the reasons already pointed out, it would be absurd to suggest that if the protocol leads to an increase in EU-UK trade, that would in itself be a "diversion of trade" that justifies disapplication of parts of the protocol. So that's definitely not what it means.

    So, what does "diversion of trade" mean in this context? What is a non-absurd understanding that the parties might be taken to have jointly intended?

    There are a couple of considerations that I have seen raised in academic/professional writing about the Protocol. I offer them for what they're worth:

    One point that is often made is that the Protocol is part of an international treaty between the UK and the EU, so the default meaning of "trade" is "trade between the parties" - UK-EU trade. Internal UK trade is in general no concern of the EU's, and internal EU trade is in general no concern of the UK's; if the treaty was going to concern itself with either of those things it would have to do so in very clear, explicit terms. So, if "diversion of trade" was intended to refer to trade between NI and GB, the treaty would say so. This argument is said to be reinforced by the fact that, when the "diversion of trade" language first appeared in the draft text, the draft treaty was still contemplating an all-UK backstop, so there was no reason to suppose that either party was thinking that it might distort internal UK trade. The concern being addressed was something like this: GB exporters to the EU may divert trade from the Channel ports and route it through NI instead in order to avoid the full rigour of EU checks and controls, which is not what the NIP is supposed to be about. That would be a diversion of UK-EU trade that would entitle a party (ironically, the EU) to invoke Art 16.

    The counter to this argument is that, as the whole point of the protocol is to treat NI differently from GB , and so it was always at risk of distorting NI-GB trade. So, whatever the parties were thinking of when the language was first introduced, by the time the agreement was finalised they must have been thinking of the possibility of NI-GB trade being affected.

    The counter to that argument is, duh, the treaty provides for checks and controls on trade moving from GB into NI. Of course that's going to affect trade flows; that's the whole point of checks and controls. It's absurd to suggest that the NI Protocol operating as both parties intended an in accordance with its plain terms is a reason for suspending the application of those terms. If that was what the parties intended they would have just not included those terms in the first place. The parties must have been thinking of trade diversions which are not the obvious and natural consequence of a plain reading of the terms of the Protocol.

    A separate line of argument suggests that, to understand what "diversion of trade" means we should note that it is bracketed with "serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist". It's obviously something different from those difficulties, or it wouldn't warrant separate mention, but comparable with them in significance, or it wouldn't be grounds for invoking Art 16. So, this argument runs, you don't look so much at whether the trade being diverted is NI-GB trade or NI-RoI trade or wider UK-EU trade or whatever, but more at the nature and scale of the diversion. And then you ask yourself if a diversion of that nature and scale is likely to have consequences that are comparable to the consequences that serious and persistent economic, etc, difficulties would have.

    We can illustrate this argument by considering its application to the iconic sausage problem that received so much attention in the Brexity press in the UK some months back. Let's assume that the checks and controls on chilled meats would make it impractical to import mixed containers into NI that include chilled meats so, if you're going to send in sausages, it has to be a container of nothing but sausages. But NI is, if not quite a global sausage powerhouse, certainly a large producer of sausage. It produces far more sausage than it consumes, and it exports the surplus. So imports are really only of specialty sausages, or imports for the likes of M&S who insist on selling the flabby English sausage rather that the unquestionably superior Ulster product. But, precisely because these are fairly niche markets, the volume of sausage imported is small, so entire containerloads do not come in. So the end result is little or no GB sausage in NI. Is this "diversion of trade" that would justify invoking the NI Protocol?

    No, is the answer, because it does not result an any material sausage shortage. The people of NI can eat all the sausage they want and, if we're honest, probably more than is good for them. The boreens and market squares of Ulster will not exactly be littered with the whitening bones of those who died for want of sausage. If anybody's adversely impacted here, it might actually be sausage producers in GB, who are effectively excluded from the NI market. But (a) it was a small market for them anyway, plus (b) we know what Brexit in general is doing to them; when they can no longer produce sausage in the quantities they used to and pigs have to be culled, the loss of the NI market is irrelevant; they still have a bigger market than they are capable of serving. Any diversion of trade resulting from the NI Protocol is wholly eclipsed by the much larger diversion of trade resulting from GB's hard brexit.

    None of this is to say that there might not be other diversions of trade due to the NI protocol that would have more significant consquences than the sausage problem does. But it highlights that, to make a case for applying the protocol, we have to identify the trade that is being diverted, quantify the diversion and demonstrate that is has a significance that can meaningfully be compared to "serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist".

    Post edited by Peregrinus on


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,229 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ...and yet again, the EU has NI's back - it is now down to GB to reassure any concerns unionists may have...




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,665 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    All that was bothering Jim Allister was the Irish language act last night on Nolan Live, must be killing him that his beloved Tories were pushing through the act over their heads.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Same guy, different story 🙂

    "Mr Šefčovič told an event in Dublin that he hoped talks would begin before the end of October.

    He said his proposals would be "very far reaching" and that he hoped they would be seen as such."

    If we don't get everything we wanted, at least this is a remarkable shift with EU now 'want talks' on their 'very far reaching proposals'. I think we can all agree that had their be no opposition from unionists this would not have happened.

    Great to see his acknowledgement that without far reaching proposals that this is currently NOT "supported by a majority of stakeholders in Northern Ireland,"



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    This is excellent "The European Commission vice-president said the EU proposals on the protocol would not be "a take it or leave it approach". Mr Šefčovič earlier said compromise was required by both sides."

    I have been endlessly told on here that there would be no compromise from EU, and i should suck it up. You guys should tell EU that 🙂



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,229 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    ...and what?

    Talks have always been an option, but will only take place within the framework of the NIP. The NIP itself will not change.

    However, I do believe that your claims above e.g. the following were not actually said - you are deliberately misinterpreting it to suit your bias and/or mixing what Šefčovič said with the usual nonsense from Donaldson...

    Great to see his acknowledgement that without far reaching proposals that this is currently NOT "supported by a majority of stakeholders in Northern Ireland,"




  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I am not mixing anything up with Donaldsons quotes.

    Here is the quote

    Mr Šefčovič said the EU was going to "enormous lengths".

    "I believe the package of practical solutions that we are putting on the table would be attractive for Northern Ireland and would be, I hope, supported by a majority of stakeholders in Northern Ireland," he told the Institute of International and European Affairs (IIEA) in Dublin.

    Give it is in the future tense it is fairly clear that he understands it currently doesn't



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You can't infer anything from that.

    A majority of stakeholders being happy to say allocate funding to some project next year doesn't mean you can infer they are unhappy with the current allocation.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,229 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    You are deliberately taking what he said and applying a completely different meaning to it!



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭FishOnABike




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,752 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    We have been telling you this for nearly a year now. The EU will facilitate flexibilities and easements built into the Protocol but will not re-negotiate the Protocol itself.

    The reason 'we are here' is because the UK has not fully implemented the Protocol yet and sat down to implement the flexibility and easements.

    Unionist protests are a colourful, if pathetic and self harming, sideshow.



  • Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Unionism will have to decide whether it can live with the NIProtocol or live with Jim Allister, the Orange Order, and assorted Unionist fruitcakes (of which there are no supply issues), getting their GB v EU fight that GB will lose.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,195 ✭✭✭✭briany


    There will always be a sizable chunk of people in NI who will prioritise unhindered trade between NI and Britain because they see it as part and parcel of their nationhood, but everyone else, be it Irish nationalists or just people who prioritise economic stability over identity, have to be looking at what's going on in mainland UK and be thinking the protocol isn't a bad state of affairs at all.

    The problem with Brexit is that it's a total folly the way Brexiteers have been conducting it. First they said it would be all upside. They said it would be an easy deal and the UK would continue to enjoy access to the SM. Now they're saying that it's going to be hard, but there are opportunities down the line. That may be, but a concussive economic impact is not what many voting for Brexit signed up for, and if the people of NI can avoid the worst of that by having actual continuing access to the SM, it's a better state of affairs from what their counterparts in the rest of the UK are now beginning to really feel the effects of. Maybe NI can vote to drop the protocol if/when that land of milk and honey has been delivered and dropping ties to the EU makes more sense, but until then....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    I think some parts of unionism realised this early on and rightfully leant on the principle of consent as the ultimate determinant of their future, unfortunately they were hijacked by populists like Jim Allister whose rage and disregard for reality was more emotionally appealing to the Never Surrenders

    It ultimately just means taking longer to get to where we should be i.e. leading the debates around whether NI is better off in GB, ROI or Timbuktu.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    francie you can live on fantasy if you wish. Even the most anti unionist interpreting today’s address would have to admit that the Eu is moving. It won’t move to my preference but that’s compromise. It will move far enough for me I have no doubt.



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