Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Hi all! We have been experiencing an issue on site where threads have been missing the latest postings. The platform host Vanilla are working on this issue. A workaround that has been used by some is to navigate back from 1 to 10+ pages to re-sync the thread and this will then show the latest posts. Thanks, Mike.
Hi there,
There is an issue with role permissions that is being worked on at the moment.
If you are having trouble with access or permissions on regional forums please post here to get access: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058365403/you-do-not-have-permission-for-that#latest

Landlord selling house

  • 06-10-2021 6:15pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 3 brianlxp


    Hi,

    I am renting a room for two years in shared accomodation. The landlord gave me eviction notice to leave as is selling the house ( I don't believe this is true). The appropriate amount of days were given on notice. The notice however was computer typed and signed by the landlord. It was not done via legal document, signed by solicitor (statutory declaration) . Is the notice that the landlord gave me invalid and therefore dismissed? Thanks.



«1

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Pomodoro


    According to the RTB a statutory declaration is required.

    They say

    “A Statutory Declaration must take a specific format and must be signed in the presence of a Commissioner for Oaths, Practising Solicitor, Notary Public, or Peace Commissioner. Please note that the Declarant must sign the Statutory Declaration themselves, it cannot be signed on their behalf by an authorised agent.”

    i don’t have permission to add links, but you will get more info by googling the rtb quote.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,111 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    You have to get a notary to issue notice to terminate tenancy?


    Wut .....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,592 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Does the landlord live in this shared accommodation with you?

    In the specific case of stating that you're selling the house (and some other reasons), yes, as there are repercussions to lying (if caught)

    https://www.rtb.ie/dispute-resolution/providing-a-correct-statutory-declaration



  • Registered Users Posts: 3 brianlxp



    "Does the landlord live in this shared accommodation with you?"

    Hi,

    No, the landlord doesn't live in the house. I just rent one room from the house. Do any factors come in to play for example (time duration of when notice was given?) Or is the notice invalid and reset no matter what because not done by way of law?


    Thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,111 ✭✭✭✭listermint


    Assuming sending notification to vacate via registered post. Having a copy and sending same notification via email would be sufficient. What would you need to expense a notary for ..and where would the lie be. That's multiple burdens of proof though..



  • Advertisement
  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It’s a stupid rule. When everyone was told to stay in their homes and emergency legislation was passed freezing evictions, landlords were still obliged to get their notices signed by a commissioner of oaths!

    Nice that the health of landlords was thought about.


    edit: and you can’t send notices by email but you can post it without registering. Dunno wtf that rule is about either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,592 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    No, it wouldn't - as the statutory declaration is required. No matter how many copies and methods you send it by doesn't defeat that.

    You can make it in front of a Peace Commissioner for free if you can find one. Many county councillors are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    F me, what a mess, why do you not believe the landlord OP? a lot of landlords are selling up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭PalLimerick


    100% invalid. Open a case with the rtb. This will put any notice on hold. Thus, keeping you in the property longer. Don't be put off doing this. There is a housing crisis and this is your right. Also the landlord must put the house on the market within, I think 9 months and if he doesn't it must be offered back to the tenants. Contact Threshold they will confirm the notice is invalid. Definitely go through the rtb.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    Imagine for a second the person wants, needs to sell the property, a militant attitude certainly hasn't helped encourage more landlords and more rentals in the past, no wonder there is a dwindling supply, glad I got out and sold up before the nightmare of the last year and a half turned up.

    You do realise, its the current and past govts that are at fault for the housing crisis?



  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,550 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Even if you are right all they would need to do is print another letter and get it rubber stamped for €10.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,268 ✭✭✭meijin


    because a lot of them were lying about selling (or needing it for family, etc), so the requirement for statutory declaration was introduced



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    A notary is not the same as a Commissioner for Oaths. Notaries charge more and there is no need for one in the case of a termination.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Pomodoro


    It's astonishing how many landlords don't make sure they follow the correct procedures for terminations, considering how protracted it can be if the tenants dig their heels in.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,404 ✭✭✭1874


    huh? I wasnt asking why the statutory declaration stuff was introduced, I asked the OP if they have some specific reason not to believe their landlord, that they are selling up? Unless you actually know yourself what the OP is thinking?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,877 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    How do you know a lot of landlords were lying, maybe their circumstances or their family's needs changed or they couldn't sell for whatever reason. Its not only tenants who have changing circumstances.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,877 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Talking to someone last week who was thinking of letting his house for 2022 while he's working in the uk. He thought that a fixed term contract for the year meant a tenant would have to leave automatically at the end of the term - he didn't know about part4 rules. TBF, theres probably a lot of people who dont know all the regulations. Renting is not as relaxed as it was, tenants and landlords both need legal advice these days.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    You would think two people could sign a contract together that would mean something. But no, the contract means nothing. Might as well not specify a time in it at all.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,998 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    Considering how many times the legislation has changed in recent memory, it nearly a profession to keep up with what is and isn't required/allowed to rent as a business.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,733 ✭✭✭ec18


    why do you think that the landlord wouldn't be selling in this market? most of them would be mad not to.



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Pomodoro


    This is what letting agents should be for. But of course they are rubbish.

    But anyway, it is indeed a business, and like any business you need to keep up with the relevant regulations around your business. And to be honest in this case, all the landlord had to do was go to the RTB website to get the correct advice. Unless he doesn't actually intend to sell, and so doesn't want to sign a statutory declaration, that is.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Letting agents are not lawyers. I know one who tells landlords to go to solicitors when they want to terminate as they don't have professional indemnity insurance to give legal advice. Letting property may be a business but some cases of property rental such as the situation of a person abroad for a year should be in a different category to those of the multiunit multi-property landlords. I know a landlord who has been trying to get a tenant out for the last three years to move in herself. She is paying a higher rent than she is getting from the tenant. The tenant is paying the rent but using every trick in the book to prolong the tenancy. Into the RT B, finding technical faults with notices, wording of notices ad nauseam. She has a solicitor and barrister but so has the tenant.



  • Registered Users Posts: 54 ✭✭Pomodoro


    Thats a bad situation for your friend, and I would personally never want to be a landlord because of the risk of this happening. That doesn't mean OP isn't entitled to have his landlord follow the correct termination procedure, nor does it mean that landlords in general shouldn't make an effort to follow the correct procedures.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Of course the contract means something. You are confusing the fact that there is additional legislation which can give tenants certain rights. A contract which simply does not mention those additional rights cannot automatically negate those obligations.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    So two people sign a contract. Both happy at the outset that the property is to be rented for a period of 12 months at x price per month and then given back to the owner.

    Tenant decides they want to stay on for another 5 years after the contract they both agreed on is up.

    Contract is worth nothing.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    It's up to you man. If you think that then feel free to rent to people without any "contract" or formal agreement at all and see whether it had any value.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    I think you miss the point.

    Two people agree a contract between them. Thats what a contract should be. Not that one of them is held to a different contract by a nanny and one of them can break whatever they like.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    But if he is moving back in after a year (which I assume he is) then he can serve a termination notice, and as long as is done properly shouldn’t be an issue (assuming tenants don’t just ignore it and need to be evicted). I did this and moved back in after a year. The landlord moving back in is a valid reason to terminate the tenancy



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    No it is you that miss the point. Your lease will not automatically override one of the party's rights. Especially by simple omission.

    It would be similar to you buying a brand new car, signing an agreement that doesn't mention warranty or guarantee and when it is delivered off the back of a lorry, finding out the engine doesn't start. Do you think you would be able to make a claim against the garage even though your signed agreement was just for you to pay money and for the garage to deliver the car? Does the fact that you signed that agreement somehow waive all the legal rights you would have otherwise had? Do you think that you would be able to take the garage to court for providing you with a faulty car?


    But as I said, feel free to let tenants into your property without any signed agreement if you believe that the signed agreement has no value



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik



    I know two people trying to sell for the last 3 years and the tenants wont move. Told by the Threshold to just stay.

    I know one house currently for sale in Ashbourne that has a tenant in it who is only too happy to say to the other parents at the school that as soon as her notice is up Threshold have told her to overhold, but to wait until the last minute. There are people currently bidding on that house.

    So what you will have there is a sale agreed and then just before closing it will all come tumbling down when it becomes known to the buyer that the tenant will not vacate.

    Goodbye chain of sales that that one is connected to.

    Herslef and her landlord most likely signed a contract when she first rented the house. Means nothing to her. And she wont even be punished for breaking it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    How will the contract be broken? If she signed a lease with the Landlord to rent the place, say up to 31st Oct 2021, then that lease will run its course. Has she ended it early? It doesn't sound like it. However, in the intervening time, she has likely established some additional rights. That is separate from the lease. When the lease is up, she is staying under those additional rights. Her ability to remain there depends on those additional rights and not on the lease (or contract as you refer to it).

    These are the things that people would be wise to understand before investing in property to rent it, or deciding to become a landlord rather than selling on a property. It can't be nice discovering the hard way when things go wrong.

    I will give you an analogy. There are employment rights which you are entitled to regardless of what is, or is not, stated in your employment contract. Back 20 or 30 years ago there was a thing where certain employers would give employees 1-year contracts, allow them to be unemployed for one day, then rehire them in order that those rights would not vest. It was actually quite common in the public sector. But now the law has changed to close those loopholes. An employer cannot keep letting you go and immediately rehiring you in order to keep you in a permanent state of "temporary staff". So even if your employer gets you to keep signing those contracts every year, your rights, and the employers obligations, are protected by legislation and are not waived because of your "contract". I can hire JimmyVik today and give you a contract up as far as 10th Oct 2022. Then on 11th Oct 2022 rehire you, then do the same on 10th Oct 2023 and so on. At the end of it we have some sort of dispute. I cannot claim that you are only entitled to what an employee of less than 1 year's standing would be entitled to. Even though that is what is in the contract.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    In this particular case the woman has been given her legal notice and has served her notice period.

    The landlord has it up for sale.

    Buyers are looking at and bidding on this house.

    The tenant asked could she stay on until the house is sold and the owner said yes as long as she is gone before the contracts are signed.

    What the owner doesnt know is she is brazenly bragging to everyone what her plan is. She has been advised by threshold to overhold if she cant find somewhere to live. So that is what she is saying she is going to do because rents are too expensive and she cant afford to move.





  • I’m certainly getting out of letting, a mug’s game.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    But why can you not understand that her bragging about whatever is nothing to do with the lease? There are separate rules which are put in to protect tenants that she is planning to abuse and take advantage of. Those exists outside the terms of her specific lease.

    If a landlord naively signs a lease without realising the the tenant will gain additional rights over time outside of the lease, then that is just a harsh lesson for them. The landlord will just learn the hard way what they should have been aware from the start could potentially happen


    It's not right for someone to abuse those rules and protections, but that's the game and the rules of the game.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Her rights are that she has to leave, as long as appropriate notice is given. The house is being sold. Period. The same as my tenants had to when I moved back in myself



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    I think you misunderstand what the word "rights" mean. If she currently has possession of the property then you're going to have a little bit of trouble on your hands. Just because you don't like the reality of the situation, and may delude yourself as to what could potentially happen, does not mean that it cannot!

    Let's see how that pans out if she decides not to leave. You might get a bit of a land if you ended up in court for arriving the next day and just turfing her out. But if you want to learn the hard way, fire ahead. You can explain to the judge that the tenant's only right was to leave the property. See how far it gets you



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    yes, she has possession and so can play the game. She has no right to be in the property, but unfortunately our law is now weighted in her favour. She is in the wrong. And getting a**hole tenants is a risk that every landlord takes. My point was that she is in the wrong here and unfortunately it is the fault of our system that she can string this along.

    This why even though I am now away from Dublin for a couple of years l will be leaving my flat empty rather than renting it out. Its unfortunate and is contributing to the housing crisis but it is the fault of people like this that I feel the need to do that



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    As you say, the law is weighted in her favour. If she wants to dig her heels in you would need to go through the steps. You would get her out eventually but she, unfortunately, has the right to drag you through that process and it will take time. It isn't morally right but she can do it if she wants to.

    Your point is very valid about leaving your own place unused. I also have a friend whom I met while abroad who similarly left her Dublin apartment unused for the time she was away (maybe over 3 years) and for the same reason. It does contribute to the shortage and I mentioned that story on here a long time ago in that context.

    I don't know whether you would be able to do up some kind of caretaker agreement with someone you already know and trust rather than a lease for your own property. Someone on here might be able to point you in the right direction if that was possible.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik



    The kids are in a play group together.

    The Mrs was telling me this woman and another couple of them are always bragging about stuff like this.

    They see this as getting one over on a big bad man. They dont see the damage they are doing to al the people who may be looking to buy that house and all along the chain if there is one.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Life is full of selfish people. It is unfortunately a risk of being in that game. It is why you can potentially get very good returns on property at a time that wholesale rates are zero or negative



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,367 ✭✭✭JimmyVik


    They want to tax you next for leaving it empty :)



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,500 ✭✭✭✭fullstop


    OP would do well to remember that they will need a reference if they have to rent another property. Be a dick to the landlord and that becomes a lot more difficult..



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    I’m walking away from 2 years rent. Would need to be a lot of tax to offset the risk of bad tenants with the law on their side….a risk that seems to be increasing



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,877 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    TBF it cant be easy on the tenant if they've tried to find a new rental and there's nothing available but if they are overholding it's also going to impact on the family buying the house and possibly other families in a buying chain. Nobody wins in a situation like this, everyone has rights and it is unfair for one persons actions to negatively impact on someone else's rights imo.

    People say a landlord should know the rules of the game but that applies to renters also, they also know the rules and know there is a high probability they will have to vacate a private rental at some point. The landlord gave correct notice and is entitled to his house. I feel a lot of sympathy for the tenants situation too. Local councils need to do better.



  • Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They don't sound very pleasant but why would they particularly be bothered about someone in a chain?

    Several years ago my landlord decided to sell and went about it ham-fistedly giving illegally short notice to leave while expecting access for decorating and viewing.

    I was only thinking about what was best for my family, if that conflicted with what the landlord wanted so be it.

    After a quick education from myself, presumably confirmed by his solicitor, we agreed a date to vacate, he then redecorated and had it sold within a month.



  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I hear ya. I eventually got a bad tenant out and I won’t be renting it out again. Had loads of desperate people looking to rent it off me but once bitten and all that. Their problems are not gonna turn into my problem.

    I’ll cross the vacant property tax bridge if it comes to it but I may find myself separating from my OH every once in a while 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,269 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    So you are confident that the capital appreciation cost minus the expenses of maintaining the house would outweigh other possible investments open to you? Or are you keeping it as a backup in case you need to move back into it? It is fair enough for you to try it if you want. There are other ways of getting exposure to the housing/property market though without taking on the same headaches

    You'd want to check things like insurance etc. You might be paying regular insurance and then find that, if you need to make a claim for anything, that you are not covered.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,299 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Even if done properly, the tenant can string it out. Adjudication, tribunal, district court, sheriff with a possible trip to the High Court and the Circuit court in between.

    It could take years. Some people are lucky, they give notice and the tenant leaves. Others are unlucky and the tenant won't go.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Yes, too much risk for a landlord. Not a chance I’m renting my flat while it’s sitting empty

    which is a real shame for those looking for accommodation. It’s a nice flat. But some people have ruined it for everyone



  • Posts: 1,169 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I’m keeping it for my kids. It was our home when I was a single parent and even though they’ve now grown up and moved to the other side of the world, it will be their home whenever they are back in the country.

    As it stands, there wouldn’t be much to to give them if I sold it tomorrow and paid back what I borrowed. But I’m happy to keep paying the mortgage in the knowledge that I have something of worth to leave to them when I’m gone.

    I’m up at the house most days so I’m not concerned from an insurance POV Have even stayed there a few nights for a change.



  • Advertisement
Advertisement