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Have FG finally noticed we have a vacant properties problem?

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    #32
    tobsey
    Registered Users Posts: 1,275 ✭✭✭tobsey


    BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »
    I’m not sure I’d agree with just having a vacant property tax apply to properties in RPZ’s only.

    I live in a rural village in the west of Ireland. On my street there are, without exaggeration, 10 vacant properties in the space of about 200 metres. I’ve lived here all my life and a few of these houses are empty since the late 90’s and all have been empty at least 5 years. I know of 2 which are owned by an individual who left for the states in the late 90’s and hasn’t been back since, yet the properties have never been put up for sale and are becoming dilapidated.

    You hear about how rural communities are in decline but is it any wonder when properties are being left empty to rot on a Main Street of a village?

    That is a problem alright, but I don’t see how the state can charge a tax on someone living in the US


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    #33
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    schmittel wrote: »
    Be careful what you wish for. I doubt it will be a bed of roses.

    But that’s what SF have promised over the years - are you saying that SF won’t do what they say?


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    #34
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    How does it work in Northern Ireland with vacant homes - given there are many street and houses deserted - and SF are in power sharing - I assume they have a policy in place already?

    I don't live in Northern Ireland. I have no idea and I don't care.


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    #35
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    schmittel wrote: »
    I don't live in Northern Ireland. I have no idea and I don't care.

    But surely if you believe SF are going to enact a policy in the south then you would see how they have done in the north ? They have had years to get one in place and yet I don’t think one exist?

    Or is it one rule when in power and another when in opposition.


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    #36
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    But that’s what SF have promised over the years - are you saying that SF won’t do what they say?

    I am saying that SF are likely to find ways to look after their voters at the expense of their rivals' voters.

    Just as FG and FF have done for years.


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    #37
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    But surely if you believe SF are going to enact a policy in the south then you would see how they have done in the north ? They have had years to get one in place and yet I don’t think one exist?

    Or is it one rule when in power and another when in opposition.

    No doubt you've notice my OP was about Fine Gael suddenly lauding the merits of a vacancy tax, not SF?


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    #38
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,910 ✭✭✭enricoh


    I think if people thought they could rent out a house for say 2 years and you could get it back no hassle after that time they'd rent them out.
    In laws of mine have a couple of houses in the west that are sitting there doing nothing.

    One of the houses the owner died and another one of the kids is gone off to the middle east for a few years.
    They won't rent them as too much hassle if you get a dud tenant.
    If it was easier to get them out they'd rent them n stick any rent into upgrading the insulation, BERs etc.


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    #39
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    schmittel wrote: »
    No doubt you've notice my OP was about Fine Gael suddenly lauding the merits of a vacancy tax, not SF?

    But you still managed to mention SF in your post.


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    #40
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭hometruths


    enricoh wrote: »
    I think if people thought they could rent out a house for say 2 years and you could get it back no hassle after that time they'd rent them out.
    In laws of mine have a couple of houses in the west that are sitting there doing nothing.

    One of the houses the owner died and another one of the kids is gone off to the middle east for a few years.
    They won't rent them as too much hassle if you get a dud tenant.
    If it was easier to get them out they'd rent them n stick any rent into upgrading the insulation, BERs etc.

    Yep, certainly agree with that. Ideally I'd like to see the balance of power tilted back equally between landlord/tenant.

    But even failing that, I'd still favour a vacant tax if you own a property in an RPZ and you think it is too much hassle to rent it out, sell it.


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    #41
    BuzzMcdonnell
    Registered Users Posts: 206 ✭✭BuzzMcdonnell


    tobsey wrote: »
    That is a problem alright, but I don’t see how the state can charge a tax on someone living in the US

    Fair point, but that still leaves 8 vacant properties on the street where the owners live in this country and can be taxed.

    Back in the early 2000’s a cousin of mine actually went 10 minutes over the road to ask the owner of one of these properties if he would sell it, owner refused.

    The same property is still there almost 20 years later and has not had a single occupant in all that time. How the owners of these properties can justify this is beyond me.


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    #42
    Flinty997
    Registered Users Posts: 12,101 ✭✭✭✭Flinty997


    They been at this for decades.

    This is just another sound bite to snare the unwary.

    Tell them what they want to hear...


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    #43
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    schmittel wrote: »
    Yep, certainly agree with that. Ideally I'd like to see the balance of power tilted back equally between landlord/tenant.

    But even failing that, I'd still favour a vacant tax if you own a property in an RPZ and you think it is too much hassle to rent it out, sell it.

    If it’s going to be fair / why only do it in. RPZ - why not all over the country? As others have pointed out there are rural towns with vacant houses?


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    #44
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    If it’s going to be fair / why only do it in. RPZ - why not all over the country? As others have pointed out there are rural towns with vacant houses?

    I Answered that above.


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    #45
    Ace2007
    Registered Users Posts: 19,705 ✭✭✭✭Ace2007


    schmittel wrote: »
    I Answered that above.

    So you did :) but it’s still not fair as majority of owners of “vacant” houses would have owned them before the RPZ was introduced - so it’s unfair .
    For the rural area maybe more would move back if houses where sold/refurbished instead of lying ideal.

    Removing the “local needs apply” on old houses on sites would help to increase supply as well


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    #46
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭hometruths


    Ace2007 wrote: »
    So you did :) but it’s still not fair as majority of owners of “vacant” houses would have owned them before the RPZ was introduced - so it’s unfair .
    For the rural area maybe more would move back if houses where sold/refurbished instead of lying ideal.

    Removing the “local needs apply” on old houses on sites would help to increase supply as well

    I’ve heard all the arguments now!

    First it was a Vacant property tax is a silly idea because there are no vacancies.
    Then it’s even if there are vacancies it would be unworkable.
    Now it’s even if it is workable it’s unfair.

    And people wonder why we have housing issues!


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    #47
    agoodpunt
    Registered Users Posts: 544 ✭✭✭agoodpunt


    how do you match vacant with a high minimum standard of requirement for human habitation and then tax those whose vacant properties dont measure is fanciful at best and tagging its reluctancy to implement on a govt party can sound good to an opp/supporter where reality is not important.


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    #48
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,987 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »
    I’m not sure I’d agree with just having a vacant property tax apply to properties in RPZ’s only.

    I live in a rural village in the west of Ireland. On my street there are, without exaggeration, 10 vacant properties in the space of about 200 metres. I’ve lived here all my life and a few of these houses are empty since the late 90’s and all have been empty at least 5 years. I know of 2 which are owned by an individual who left for the states in the late 90’s and hasn’t been back since, yet the properties have never been put up for sale and are becoming dilapidated.

    You hear about how rural communities are in decline but is it any wonder when properties are being left empty to rot on a Main Street of a village?
    howwatermelon wrote: »
    Second this. There are lots of towns in Ireland with LOTS of empty properties falling into disrepair. Regeneration of these areas would drive people back to the areas and the knock on effect of more dense urban living, less cars etc. Right now where I live, I can see 5, 4 bedroom houses, with sizeable gardens that have not been occupied since 2007. They wouldn’t even need significant renovation to be brought into use.
    Maybe a vacant property tax is the way to go.

    How many one off McMasions have been built in the area? People keep saying the towns and villages are empty put everyone wants a house on an acre of land in the middle of nowhere. So how do you get people who want haven't wanted to live in a town/village for the last 30+ years, see how many one offs have been built, move into these towns/villages? It's all good saying tax vacant homes but people haven't wanted then for decades and now most are only suitable for demolition.


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    #49
    C14N
    Registered Users Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    BuzzMcdonnell wrote: »
    Back in the early 2000’s a cousin of mine actually went 10 minutes over the road to ask the owner of one of these properties if he would sell it, owner refused.

    The same property is still there almost 20 years later and has not had a single occupant in all that time. How the owners of these properties can justify this is beyond me.

    If he's been holding it for 20 years, most of which have had minimal or no property tax, then it's probably massively increased in value and made him a mint. That's a big problem, imo, but it's how people can justify it to themselves.
    Del2005 wrote: »
    How many one off McMasions have been built in the area? People keep saying the towns and villages are empty put everyone wants a house on an acre of land in the middle of nowhere. So how do you get people who want haven't wanted to live in a town/village for the last 30+ years, see how many one offs have been built, move into these towns/villages? It's all good saying tax vacant homes but people haven't wanted then for decades and now most are only suitable for demolition.

    This is kind of a good point. If people are going to live near a small town, often they can "commute" from a one-off rural house that they self-built with an acre of land fairly easily. They're not missing out on many amenities like they would if they lived outside a big city, and it will likely have minimal impact on travel times, so it's harder to convince them to live in the small town in a derelict property. Not saying that's the major cause of the problem, just that it's easy to imagine it contributes in some way.


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    #50
    YipeeDee
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭YipeeDee


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117316128#Comment_117316128

    I’ve been curious about this topic. Especially since I plan on leaving the rental market if or when SF get in.

    Firstly, I fully intend to honour my lease with my current tenants but as soon as they leave there’s no way I’d take the chance of letting a property with the crazy legislation SF want to bring in and heaven only knows what they’ll knit up once in power.

    So my plan is to deregister myself as LL and my house as a rental property as soon as possible.

    And use my house for my own use probably 2 - 3 nights a week (to save on the commuting to Dublin to work)

    Also our son is attending college in Dublin and also currently making the commute so will save him the commute time also.

    I should also mention my property was not purchased as a buy to let.

    It was my starter home which I purchased and lived in prior to our move to the country 20 years ago.

    I only began to let it out just three years ago, so it hasn’t been in circulation as a rental very long.

    Anyhow, where would my planned set up fall with the vacant property tax ?

    It would not be vacant for six months it will be in use immediately on a part time basis after my tenants leave.

    Also curious to know how will the SF government police it exactly?

    How will they know how many nights per week / month a property owner is resident in their own property?

    Apps on phones can turn on and off lights, control the TV, even answer the doorbell from anywhere in the world.

    Are SF going to employ an army of private investigators to sit outside every privately owned property to check if the owner is resident there?



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    #51
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    Does anyone really believe an empty property tax would encourage owners to enter the private rental market? Lots of places are probably vacant because of the rental regulations in the first place.

    Someone in that situation might prefer a tax rather than end up with an indefinite tenancy or restrictions on the use of their privately owned asset. Why not tax other idle assets, eg, a vintage car, empty commercial property, unused farm or religious buildings, and what about works of art - shure they just sit on a wall doing nothing... Government should be doing more to encourage the supply of places to rent and stop the gotcha tactics in the residential market or owners will keep selling and supply will keep falling.



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    #52
    YipeeDee
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭YipeeDee


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996351#Comment_117996351

    Very well said. An empty property tax on top of the many other punitive legislation implemented over the last few years is precisely what is driving me out of the rental market as soon as possible.

    Their plans to prohibit LL’s from being able to bring their own children in to live, is the straw that’s broken this camels back. I have one rental property, it was my home and I hung on to it for the main purpose of giving my own children a start in life.

    I hate the idea of a vacant property but I’d rather see my property stand idle than lose that right.

    And the idea of being locked into indefinite tenancies, how on earth can they force any citizen to remain in a profession against their will? And strip them of their rights to the assets they’ve bought and paid for?

    Amazingly the same public figures who were crying out for people to rent their second properties just a few short years ago. Are the very same people who have done nothing but implement more and more legislation designed to strip property rights from landlords ever since.

    I was one of the fools that answered their call.

    Never had any intention of becoming a landlord previously.

    As they say if I’d known then, what I know now, I’d never have become a landlord.

    As soon as my current tenants leave at the end of their tenancy, I’m getting the hell out and won’t be renting again.

    And as I will not be selling my property, there’ll be one less rental property on the market.



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    #53
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,375 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117315709#Comment_117315709

    What legitimate reasons?



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    #54
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996317#Comment_117996317

    Whilst I support the introduction of a vacancy tax, I totally agree it is government's crazy legislation that is pushing LLs out of the market, and thus causing the need for such a tax. It's a crazy situation.

    Curious though why so may people on this thread seem to be wary of SF's actions in regard to a vacancy tax. It is an FFG proposal and they say it is likely to come in next year after revaluation of the LPT.

    From what I understand we're likely to have a vacancy tax long before we have an SF government.



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    #55
    hometruths
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 5,981 ✭✭✭hometruths


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996351#Comment_117996351

    It's very silly to compare other idle assets like vintage cars or works of art to property. Nobody who has an unused classic car in their garage lying idle is exacerbating a situation that is causing significant financial and economic costs to the entire country.

    Government should be doing more to encourage the supply of places to rent and stop the gotcha tactics in the residential market or owners will keep selling and supply will keep falling

    If a vacancy tax means owners sell up rather than rent out, this is a good thing for the housing market. It reduces rental demand and increases sales supply. Exactly what is needed.



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    #56
    Topgear on Dave
    Registered Users Posts: 4,545 ✭✭✭Topgear on Dave


    I can't see it working either.

    I'm quite familiar with a house vacant for several years in a small country town. The owner lived there a few years and then moved in with their partner a few years ago.

    I know the house is slowly deteriorating inside and out, garden overgrown etc etc.

    Its obvious to neighbours it's empty (an eyesore). But how does the council or government legally prove they don't live there though?



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    #57
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996541#Comment_117996541

    If an individual decides to sell up it wont be because they want to increase the amount of properties available, it will more likely be to suit their own circumstances. Private property owners are not the ones to fix a shambolic housing market and a tax on vacant property wont bully people back into the rental market as some would like to think. Maybe a carrot approach would produce better results. If every owner of a private rented property decided to exit that market and keep their property for their own use while paying such a vacancy tax, it would reduce rentals but wouldn't increase properties for sale. Then what??



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    #58
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996598#Comment_117996598

    You increase the tax. Vacant properties in Ireland for the most part exist because its financially viable to do so. Their value increases based on the amenities/services available, which are provided mainly through taxation and development of the area. If a property isn't contributing anything to the area, then it shouldn't get to participate in a value increase without a appropriate tax in place. I can think of a number of properties/land in Dublin that has sat empty for decades and are worth small fortunes without having ever added anything to the locations.

    Eg, a vacant cottage up the arsehole of a kerry mountain hasn't really increased in value in comparison to a house near or in a town or city.



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    #59
    Dav010
    Registered Users Posts: 14,513 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996400#Comment_117996400

    Holiday homes/Owners living or working abroad/probate/ houses where ownership is in dispute/properties that are going through planning process/unfinished houses/houses being built or refurbished to make habitable /houses for sale/houses where owner is ill/houses that are actually vacant, but the owners claim they still use them etc, etc.

    Thats just off the top of my head, I’m sure there are many more, some of the above Leo listed when discussing the difficulties with vacant property tax. There is a vacant site levy which the Councils are not having much luck enforcing due to the difficulties in proving the site is vacant, and subject to the levy.

    https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.rte.ie/amp/1024157/

    https://www.mhc.ie/latest/insights/the-problem-with-vacant-site-levies

    Post edited by Dav010 on


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    #60
    mrslancaster
    Registered Users Posts: 1,811 ✭✭✭mrslancaster


    https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996646#Comment_117996646

    It depends on how 'vacant' is defined. Would that be a property that is unoccupied for part of a year, part of a week? Would it be second properties or would it include those family homes where owners are in nursing homes? If someone takes a job abroad or decides to live in a sunnier climate for a period of time would that be classed as vacant if they only returned the odd weekend? Seems very vague and it wont increase supply. Slapping another tax on property owners might give the impression that something was being done but could backfire like a lot of the previous measures. People eventually get fed up being the whipping boy.



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    #61
    dudley72
    Registered Users Posts: 1,760 ✭✭✭dudley72


    A property tax on empty houses is ridiculous and the government should put a stop to this nonsense from the opposition now

    In reality a large majority of houses “vacant” that will be hit are small family home in the back end of Mayo etc that even if they are put up for sale/rent will make no difference to the housing crisis

    Its just buzz words from the opposition to get the usuals shouting about it.

    If this is about the housing crisis the introduce just in major cities like Dublin/Cork etc.

    Or are people trying to say a homeless person in Dublin is going to head down and move into a house in the likes of FixFord in Mayo?



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