Employer underpaying public holiday and annual leave pay

Brid Hegarty · 08-10-2021 4:11pm #1

The first issue is that I only get 8 hours pay for a bank holiday which I don't work, when my standard work day is a 12 hour shift. I've been on

The other issue was with the June bank holiday that I did work. It was a night shift going from Monday to Tuesday and I got paid double time for the 5 hours of it that fell before midnight. But I did not get any extra allowance on top of s. Again, I got two different answers when I rang the WRC. One said I should get an extra 7 hours to make it up to 12 hours (5 + 7 = 12), and the other person saying that I should get an additional 12 hours on top of that.

The third issue is to do with holidays pay, which again they seem to be taking junks out of.

What are my options here? Join Siptu temporarily? Make an e-complaint to the WRC? Go to a lawyer?

08-10-2021 4:26pm

I don't see a problem.

Unless you work 5 x 12 hour shifts a week. Which I doubt. A public holiday is 20% of working week.

It is correct also you get double for the hours you work on public holiday, but not next day

Mrs OBumble · 08-10-2021 4:36pm

Join SIPTU for as long as you're working there.

Brid Hegarty · 08-10-2021 4:36pm

@[Deleted User] Unless you work 5 x 12 hour shifts a week. Which I doubt. A public holiday is 20% of working week.

Thanks Lorenzo. But then it should be 9.6 hours pay and not 8. It just annoys me that the WRC gave two different answers. Anyway, it's one or the other, so I definitely should be getting more than 8 hours.

@[Deleted User] It is correct also you get double for the hours you work on public holiday, but not next day

Well yeah, but it's just funny to think that I would have got paid an extra 7 hours if I refused to work that shift. I could have said that I'd something on in advance and they would've gave it to someone else and I'd have ended up working the same number of shifts that week.

Tell me how · 08-10-2021 5:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058212253/employer-underpaying-public-holiday-and-annual-leave-pay

What are my options here? Join Siptu temporarily? Make an e-complaint to the WRC? Go to a lawyer?

Can I add another option, and I say this with all due respect, but you've started a number of threads on here where you feel that you are being treated unfairly at work and my immediate recollection of these is that you have been looking for something to get aggrieved about rather than there being a fundamental issue that is worth getting upset about.

It would seem, going by some of your other threads that you are recently new in this role and if so, possibly still on probation, it is worth noting that if this is the case, that the company can decided to terminate your employment at any point within the probation period without giving any justification for doing so. If you meet the wrong solicitor (should you go that route) you can safely assume they will exercise that right and you will have a solicitors bill to take care of also.

You have also started a thread which started with the following 'What's an aspect about yourself that you've managed to become aware of and get under control?' It is with this in mind that I suggest that you try to focus on learning and performing your duties as best you can and becoming valuable to the company so they are looking for ways to keep you happy rather than assuming a company or person within is automatically out to pull the wool over your eyes in some way or another. The likelihood of them trying to skim from pay is very small (although not impossible) as if caught for it, with payroll records, it would be pretty cut and dried. When coming in to a new company, a good rule of thumb is to take your lead from others already there. Have they flagged concerns about pay in this way? The chances of you working in successive companies within a short time span where they are treating employees unfairly and you are the only one experiencing this would be close to zero.

As I said at the start, with all due respect, you will be much more content and successful at work if you don't go looking for problems unless it is clear that they are there.

Edit - I was thinking about this and I want to be clear, I am not suggesting categorically that you are imagining being mistreated, and I know people start threads when they want guidance or support, and that is what a good 'Work Problems' forum is for. I just think it would be in your own long term best interest to focus on what you can do and contribute within your place of employment. I think it would give you the best chance of being content, or at least not worried or stressed about your job.

Dempo1 · 08-10-2021 5:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117994151#Comment_117994151

Well that pretty much covers everything 😁

AnRothar · 08-10-2021 10:40pm

The other issue was with the June bank holiday that I did work. It was a night shift going from Monday to Tuesday and I got paid double time for the 5 hours of it that fell before midnight. But I did not get any extra allowance on top of s.

You worked a 12 hour shift consisting of 5 hours on Bank Holiday Monday and 7 hours on Non Bank Holiday Tuesday.

So you worked 5 hours on the Bank Holiday and got paid at double time for these hours.

The overall length of the duty is not relevant to attracting a premium, just that part that you actually worked which fell on Bank Holliday Monday.

You were paid correctly.

As posted by LorenzoB above I seriously doubt that you are working 5 * 12 hour shifts in a week.

While you are working shift work you do not appear to know much about it.

Rather than asking random strangers on the internet get one of your colleagues to explain it to you. Especially how it pertains to your employment.

Brid Hegarty · 09-10-2021 12:21am

@AnRothar While you are working shift work you do not appear to know much about it.

Are you implying that you know something about shift work that I don't? Because if you do then spit it out. To be honest, my colleagues don't seem to understand this stuff.

But there are many things about shift work that I don't know. Like for example, why is it that shift workers only get overtime for weeks that more than 48 hours are worked, but with regular workers it's anything over 39 hours. Why is it that shift workers don't have to be paid anything extra for night shifts. And (if I'm wrong with all this) their not even entitled to a 5th of their regular week's wages for a bank holiday.

@AnRothar I seriously doubt that you are working 5 * 12 hour shifts in a week.

The bottom line is that 8 hours pay is less than a 5th of my working week. And as a matter of fact, there are guys site who often work five 12 hour shifts a week, who still only get 8 hours for their bank holidays. Not to mention that one of these workers could happen to be rostered for 5 night shifts during a week with a bank holiday and only end up getting 5 hours double time.

beachhead · 09-10-2021 12:34am

As far as I am aware when you join a company on shift work your hourly rate compensates for the unsocial hours of shift work.That means your hourly rate is more than the minimum wage at least.It makes no difference if day or night shift though some companies will pay extra for nights or weekends.

Mattie500 · 09-10-2021 12:40am

Would breaks be included in the calculation for hours worked?

Dav010 · 09-10-2021 7:22am

Op, assuming you are not being paid for breaks, though your 12 hrs shifts mean you are at work for 48 hrs per week, you are only being paid for 40 hours. When that is divided by 5 to pay you for the BH, it amounts to 8 hrs. If you don’t get paid for breaks, you don’t get paid for them on a BH either.

In relation to the pay on shift worked, that is a bit less clearcut. But as a BH starts an ends on the same day, anytime after midnight the next day is not the BH. What you should check is whether the shift who worked the night before got extra pay after midnight, if they did, then all seems fair.

mrslancaster · 09-10-2021 8:49am

OP, are you paid the same pay each week, excluding o/t? If an employee works or is normally required to work during any part of the day which is a public holiday, then the relevant rate for the public holiday is the sum paid in respect of the normal daily hours last worked by you, before that public holiday.

Iirc, night workers were not paid double only for the part of their shift that falls on the PH. The amount due is your daily rate of pay afaik. Wrc or siptu could answer that for you.

If your pay changes every week according to the hours worked then your daily pay is your average daily rate based on your pay in the previous 13 weeks, excluding o/t.

If you dont normally work and are not required to work on a PH, then pay should be one fifth of your normal weekly hours last worked before the public holiday. Depending on if its same every week or calculated based on the 13 weeks previously. Excluding o/t.

The company are not obliged to pay for your breaks. Also some night work that is hazardous or involves heavy physical or mental strain is limited to 8 hours and the average for night work should be 8 hours when its averaged out over 2 months. Maybe your company is using that calculation as a basis for pay but thats a H&S issue and not for payment.

Whats the problem with your holiday pay?

Brid Hegarty · 09-10-2021 3:00pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996151#Comment_117996151

Is your question in relation to BH pay, holidays pay, or overtime?

I know a guy who at the company I'm talking about who took a case against his previous company (Synergy), and won. He said it was because they wouldn't honour his overtime. They did however take off breaks when they calculated this, so he didn't get as much as he expected.

Dav010 · 09-10-2021 3:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117997521#Comment_117997521

It’s a question about your contract of employment. If you are not paid for breaks, then you have to deduct breaks from your BH pay, so if you are at work for 48 hours but don’t get paid for the breaks you get, you will be paid 20% of your 48 hours, less breaks, giving you 8 paid hrs on the BH.

Brid Hegarty · 09-10-2021 11:59pm

@Dav010 ...you will be paid 20% of your 48 hours, less breaks, giving you 8 paid hrs on the BH.

I'd get out your calculator again because that ain't right. You're starting out with the answer you want, which is 8, and working from there.

Brid Hegarty · 10-10-2021 12:00am

@mrslancaster What's the problem with your holiday pay?

I'll get back to you on that shortly.

Dav010 · 10-10-2021 12:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999347#Comment_117999347

There are two variables in this which so far you haven’t answered.

are your breaks paid?
how much break time do you get during your 12 hr shift?

If you answer those questions, we might be able to help you, those break periods may have to be deducted from your 48 hours before you do your 20% calculation for BH pay.

Darc19 · 10-10-2021 12:26am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999347#Comment_117999347

Maybe you need to understand basic calculations on work hours.

If you work 9am to 5pm and have a one hour lunch, that is a 7 hour day.

If you start work at 5pm and finish at 5am and have one and a half hours of breaks to that is a 10.5 hour day

When you don't give the correct information to the wrc, they will give you a wrong answer

Mrs OBumble · 10-10-2021 1:55am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117999347#Comment_117999347

Just go and join the damn union.

They've answered these questions thousands of time. They know how the law is applied by the court / WRC, and how employers respond to that. They know how to challenge wrong applications of the law, in a way that maximised a change of the desirerd response from your employer.

AnRothar · 10-10-2021 12:37pm

To the OP.

We have no idea what is in your contract of employment.

Start by reading ORGANISATION OF WORKING TIME ACT

and websearch the following

Explanatory Booklet on Holidays and Public Holidays

for Employers and Employees

DIRECTIVE 2003/88/EC OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL

of 4 November 2003

concerning certain aspects of the organisation of working time

then

Just go and join the damn union.

Brid Hegarty · 10-10-2021 5:24pm

@Darc19 When you don't give the correct information to the wrc, they will give you a wrong answer

Always appreciate being spoken down to. Thanks

AnRothar · 10-10-2021 7:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118001444#Comment_118001444

Once upon a time I had the opportunity to have an individual explain the trapdoor to me.

I would love to hear the actual question you put to the WRC.

Brid Hegarty · 10-10-2021 11:23pm

@mrslancaster Whats the problem with your holiday pay?

Well am I right in saying that holidays pay should be calculated including the public holidays pay? Because given that they've already underpaid me for the public holidays (as mentioned), then this means that the holidays pay has to incorrect even if they are including the holidays pay in their calculation. Even using the hours they gave me for the bank holidays, it's still coming up slightly low.

Spook_ie · 10-10-2021 11:39pm

Well as regards holiday entitlement you could start here

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/employment/employment_rights_and_conditions/leave_and_holidays/annual_leave_public_holidays.html#lcde4d

and see which scenario applies to your situation.

mrslancaster · 11-10-2021 8:03am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002722#Comment_118002722

Pay for holidays/Annual Leave is based on the normal weekly rate you received when you last worked before the AL starts. This is the fixed amount you are paid each week including any fixed regular bonus or allowance, and should include compensation for board or lodgings if they are part of the job. Otherwise if your pay is variable, or changes each week because of commission or piece work, then holiday pay is based on the average weekly pay over the 13 week period before AL starts.

So if an employer underpaid you for a PH, it could only affect a pay rate that was based on the 13 week average method of calculation. If the pay rate was based on a fixed weekly rate it would not change it. (You should be paid correctly for PH.)

The number of paid AL days due is calculated based on hours worked or time spent on some statutory absences eg maternity leave. The leave year is apr-mar but many companies use the calendar year. The statutory paid AL is 4 working weeks if you've worked at least 1365 hours in the current year or pro-rata if you join/leave a company during the year. Some companies pay more than the statutory 4 weeks AL.

After working 8 months you are entitled to two weeks unbroken paid AL. You should be paid in advance for any AL you take and any unused days can be carried over for 6 months. There are special arrangements if carry-over is due to certified illness. If you have any unused AL when you leave your job, you should be paid for those days, also if you leave just before a PH falls then you should be paid in lieu.

Brid Hegarty · 11-10-2021 9:41am

@mrslancaster So if an employer underpaid you for a PH, it could only affect a pay rate that was based on the 13 week average method of calculation. If the pay rate was based on a fixed weekly rate it would not change it. (You should be paid correctly for PH.)

Yeah, that makes it very messy. For the two BHs that I did work I should be getting a 5th of the working week (9.6 hours pay), which I'll need to put into the calculation. The BH I did work makes the calculation messier. I think I might call citizens information to help me calculate what I should be paid.

@mrslancaster also if you leave just before a PH falls then you should be paid in lieu.

Yet another way that companies get away with not paying employees properly. Would anyone even notice this?

witchgirl26 · 11-10-2021 9:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117996126#Comment_117996126

People get overtime for time worked over & above what their contracted hours are - that could be 39 hours, 48 hours, 10 hours. Doesn't matter if it's shift work or not - it's based on their contracted hours. And most people who work office jobs of 39 hours don't get any overtime or time in lieu at all as it's factored into their wages.

As for the bank holiday pay - you were paid double for the time that you worked on the bank holiday. I don't see a problem with this. The time past midnight is not the bank holiday & therefore you wouldn't be entitled to double pay for that.

Brid Hegarty · 11-10-2021 10:20am

@beachhead As far as I am aware when you join a company on shift work your hourly rate compensates for the unsocial hours of shift work.

I don't know. There are people on certain parts of the site who work work minimum wage who work night shifts.

Brid Hegarty · 11-10-2021 10:35am

@witchgirl26 As for the bank holiday pay - you were paid double for the time that you worked on the bank holiday. I don't see a problem with this. The time past midnight is not the bank holiday & therefore you wouldn't be entitled to double pay for that.

Here is what I wrote in my OP, but now worded better:

"I got two different answers when I rang the WRC. One person said I should get an extra 7 hours to make it up to a total of 12 paid hours (5 + 7 = 12), and the other person said I should get an additional 12 hours (BH allowance) on top of the 5 hours that I got paid."

So either way, one of those answers has to be correct. It can't be the case that someone gets less money for working the BH. It doesn't make sense.

@witchgirl26 People get overtime for time worked over & above what their contracted hours are - that could be 39 hours, 48 hours, 10 hours. Doesn't matter if it's shift work or not - it's based on their contracted hours.

But my contracted hours are 24! Tis what it states in my contract:

"The nature of Security work means that hours of work may be variable. Your average hours of work each week are 24 hours. However, hours may vary due to business needs and operational requirements. Your precise hours will be based on your rostered work pattern, which is published to you in advance."

Brid Hegarty · 11-10-2021 10:49am

@mrslancaster Pay for holidays/Annual Leave is based on the normal weekly rate you received when you last worked before the AL starts. This is the fixed amount you are paid each week including any fixed regular bonus or allowance...

Are you sure? In one part of my contract it reads:

"Site Premium rates are agreed by the customer on an individual basis and are strictly site specific."

And in another:

"The value of holiday entitlement will be calculated at the basic hourly rate applicable to your normal place of work."

I know that my contract seems to suggest that the site premium I get (depending on my location on site) can be ignored when it comes to calculating holidays pay. But a contract cannot negate statutory rights. There has been another worker questioning this too.

Thanks

jimmycrackcorm · 11-10-2021 11:17am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118003539#Comment_118003539

You are a part time worker then as you are only working 24 hours per week. So this applies :

Part-time employees

You are entitled to a day's pay for the public holiday if you meet both these conditions:

You have worked for your employer at least 40 hours in the 5 weeks before the public holiday
The public holiday falls on a day you normally work

If you are required to work that day you are entitled to an additional day's pay.

If you do not normally work on that particular day, you should get one-fifth of your weekly pay. Even if you are never rostered to work on a public holiday, you are entitled to one-fifth of your weekly pay as compensation for the public holiday.

So you got paid 5 hours which is one-fifth of your contracted hours. I don't know why you think it should be 9.6. I don't think you told the WRC you are only part-time and only working 24 hours per week. And the hours worked after midnight were not bank holiday hours. So looks correct to me.

You haven't given specifics about your issue with holiday pay, but I do think you aren't clear about your entitlements, and I also think employers use payroll software that does these calculations correctly as long as the correct information is recorded.

Employer underpaying public holiday and annual leave pay

Comments

Part-time employees