The creeping prominence of the Irish language

One thing I like about TG4’s coverage of the rugby is that they always seem to have the ref‘s mic turned up so when a penalty is given you can hear the reason quite clearly.

What I find tends to happen in these types of discussion is that we debate with rational minds - comments tend to be speed read/scanned, and often it is the mis-match in our registry that tends to ignite a response and another tangent of the discussion evolves. -Especially when in response to a long comment. Ex (Gormdubhgorm posted some interesting thoughts & links I didn't comment on, though what I disagreed with - i did!.) I found many contributers thoughts really eye-opening.

'My bad' for stating Irish was the oldest spoken language in Europe, and thanks Wibbs/Ulysses for the interesting info on Basque/Greek/Celtic Languages. :-)

The main thrust of the discussion is regarding peoples' attitudes to the language.

And with that in mind, I'm curious as to the areas of agreement with regard to the Irish language. Things such as ...

-Is usefulness (or lack of) -

-It it valuable?

-Is it worthwhile supporting the language - if so, what are the benefits and to whom?

Is there even a broad area where people agree???

I'm genuinely interested to know the points you agree with - as you seem to be well studied in a lot of areas relating to language 🙂. The thread has meandered into an exploration of Manx, Scots Gaelic etc. And while this is really interesting, I find it detracts from the core issues regarding Gaeilge.

Also, I think progress is made on what people agree on. It's the things we disagree on that lead to polar division and adversarial thinking & sadly the inevitable insults (as we have seen) . which can entrench a me vs them kind of false reality.

This was a response to the comment I made

'Irish people who don’t notice the background stuff are asleep - not only to their culture but to the very essence that has shaped their identity -the perceived and the hidden.'

We can look at identity historically as a result of- this-that and the other (not)happening. I believe that a deeper journey can be taken - how far back can we go, through history - a language such as Irish goes WAY back to encompass - emigration, famine, colonialism, Clans, Christianity, early Christianity, Pre-Christianity, Iron Age, Bronze Age, Moyturians, Tuaithe Dé Danann and everything in between. Having the language alive today can enable one not only to study our lineage but is a living key with which one can become immersed into states of consciousness and their changes over eons. It's good for the soul. This cannot be done so well from the outsider looking in through English alone- as you rely on the translation which is a poor second in capturing the va-va-voom. :-)

So the essence of our identity can be explored by many means but Irish is still a living language -it's quite a rich portal through which to journey -we'd be culturally worse off to dismiss it. Yet, I can see how gaining a decent fluency has become a problem which makes it all the more important to help and encourage people (who wish to do so) to appreciate, learn and speak it - and enrich themselves along the way.

As it stands, we are being saturated with commercial junk - bite-size media fixes in the form of tik-tok, instagram & whatever the next craze is. Enough to fire a quick dopamine fix before moving to the next, and so on… Real culture is an antidote to much of the mainstream junk we are exposed to :-)

What I find odd is the people who would do away with the national language tomorrow are, usually, the same “type” who would balk at the idea of Ireland tightening relations with the EU.

Our language is paramount to our national “identity”. Without it we may as sign back into the Union with the brits.

I wonder what area(s) of culture you’d consider higher up the rank that you’d consider of greater value?

Sport and music.

But you can enjoy them just as easily without speaking Irish so it's still not paramount to the culture.

PcBanana / Evade : Sport & Music play a huge part in our culture. But imagine if … only 15 % of the population play a traditional instrument, should we do away with supporting traditional music? I don’t think it adds up. A much greater number can appreciate its value and would be willing to support it. It’s an easy thing to separate things ‘into the narrow divisive boxes’.

No, give support those that want it but stop sending flyers about tin whistles and céilí to people that haver no interest in them. Like I wrote in my first post in this thread I've been through the whole Irish thing, I used to speak it better than some of my teachers, but I had no reason to keep it up because there's nothing of interest to me that requires it.

The fact is, a lot more than 15% partake and so it's a better connection to any cultural identity the participants may have than language and for one reason: they are introduced as fun activities.

And even if it was only 15% I'm pretty sure you wouldn't have people stepping and demanding that every child in the country be forced to spend several hours a week doing it.

Getting off topic here, but I'd bring in philosophy and a general cultural studies course, encompasing sports, arts, langauge and mythology.

No core subjects after Junior Cert. At the point, students have enough knowledge for necessary lifeskills useage.

And I'm pretty sure you'd have a much better sense of cultrual identity than bilingual transport announcements.

Saying that children are like sponges is just a convienince. If it was true, they'd be picking it up in far larger numbers.

Idea has been shot down already for various reasons: we don't have the resources, the skills (considering we can bearly teach Irish in Irish, expanding it to other subjects sounds particualry daft) and parents aren't going to be willing to gamble their kids education against a langauge revival on the basis that they're "sponges".

You need more Irish outside of the classroom, not in it.

Teachers having Irish, and being able to teach Irish and then being able to teach other subjects in Irish are completely separate skills - and from what I hear (from Irish speakers themselves) is that the levels of Irish in primary schools is not that great.

Again - we're not teaching Irish well enough to start branching out to other subjects, and if kids were sponges, they be picking the langauge up already, woudn't they?

That last paragraph has a lot of assumption, flawed logic and what you "think" might happen to be taken seriously.

This little comment is really insightful -and funny too 😅

Simply being open enough to support others in cultural use/expression goes a long way & plays a vital part in keeping culture alive.

By partake - I’m not sure whether you mean as musicians or listeners? Certainly, as an audience the % of appreciation exceeds those who actually play - mutually beneficial.

Most good musicians picked up the passion to learn from having a great music teacher. What sparks off the passion is so important - every good beginning starts with that.

Where language & the arts meet can be quite powerful. Singing and sport : 'Amhrán na bhFiann' , can evoke tears in grown-ups who don't speak Irish daily. I think formal reading and writing could take a back-seat to singing / playing games to learn conversational skills.

This evokes in me the image of some militant minority group of 'them' forcing the whole country of kiddies to do something. 🙂 I think this argument is a bit of a non-runner - as the same could be said for any subject. I had a teacher so awful at teaching Maths in school - I'd be forced to stay in over lunch until I could grasp a new concept (some area of numeric fractions before the I got the visual concept). So I took an aversion to Maths until later in life - but bear no grudge against the maths world ...even though I found never found use in quadratic equations in practical life 😅 The curriculum pretty much demands that time is spent on learning stuff!

That said, there are schools where children decide what they want to learn based on their innate curiosity … and it goes from there (like ‘Sudbury Schools’ I think they’re called).

Wibbs:

I think you make a decent argument to support those who speak / who wish to preserve the language, since by focusing resources towards those with a passion (Irish, Sport…whatever) they can in turn ignite that in others with cascading ripple effect. Like the parable of the sower -why throw resources "...to birds... rocky ground...or thorns, when fertile soil" will bring them to fruition. Teachers who have poor Irish shouldn’t teach it. They’re the poor soil 😅That’s why I’d favour specialist Irish teachers in English medium schools (where necessary) that could at least ignite some passion in the language.

Resources spent on community groups is a good idea. Where Irish is used in learning another skill say (off the top off my head) like like boat building -relaxed atmosphere with a common goal and using the language as opposed to a ‘rang Gaeilge’ with an end result where the ‘group’ also bond - with the language as an add-on… they can sail their boat and continue speaking 🙂

Neither do I - in the sense that Dubhdubhgorm suggests in having all education - primary through to secondary Irish language.

I do support having it taught in all schools - but ONLY if it being taught by a teacher who has fluency/interest/passion in the language & makes it interactive & fun. It should not be mandatory for teachers with little confidence in a subject area to teach it (those type of teachers shouldn’t be in the system at all but, sadly …they exist). So -some form of a specialist teacher(s) in a school would be good. I'd also be open to entire school staff spending 3 days in the Gaeltacht each year, where there'd be a focus on using Irish informally coupled with some area they'd like to upskill on -taught by premiership standard teachers. Encourage some informal bilingualism in the school.

An experience can be mandatory but that doesn’t mean the experience is going to be good.

Perhaps making it mandatory for all teachers to teach something with an assumption that they’ll be good at it is foolish. It makes little sense for a teacher who has no passion in something to teach it, whatever the area! When I did my leaving, I did get some extra grinds in English it made ALL the difference - just having a teacher who was inspiring once a week transformed Shakespeare and I started to 'get' poetry and enjoy it!

REGARDING: Irish & Identity going way back ...

I'm not so sure I can agree with you here. So, just to be clear -regarding identity and culture - I'm including symbolism in the frame here as found not only in written tradition but also to the preceding oral tradition which was very strong. The orally based knowledge-bearing tradition carried with it, unaltered core-information, passed on generations before it was written. The symbology within it predates written accounts by, well - 'how long?' is anyone's guess -100's to perhaps 1000's of years? I believe the symbology carried through myth & legend appeals to our deeper psyche -language may have changed here and there but didn’t the symbolic imagery exist before the written word, which subsequently got carried through? Changes in language structure still preserved the imagery behind it. (Would love to get your opinion on this Wibb’s) 😉

It is easier for children to learn languages at a young age. The ‘like sponges’ metaphor has a lot of truth behind it. Babies and young children are hard-wired to soak in pattern and sound -that’s partly the reason even pre-speech that they like nursery rhymes: pattern, repetition, musicality of words etc...

You don’t teach a baby via English lessons…they soak it in like osmosis- accents and all ☺️ Learning language young is a big advantage!

Well this is partially true -if Irish is look upon as a subject with a focus solely on grammar, for example then sure, it’s different to teaching say, geography. But Irish is a language more so than a subject. Language can be applied to any area. You can play ‘Simon Says’ in Irish class & use it as warm up for sports & have children take over to give instructions. A story about St Brigit (history) can be Irish class & history at the same time.

The primary curriculum has a holistic view of learning by integrating subjects.

Secondary school - it’s more compartmentalised for sure.

If the conversational language taught in class can be used (& modelled) during the day, kids can ask for things like ‘can I sit next to ‘Joe’ . Can I get a drink / colour it in …. all day long they can learn to ask for things …once they’ve the structure to do so. Same goes for any regular phrase they use during the day- make it child centred and away you go! Drama is one of the best ways to learn / practice a language -little scripts -children can play around with the words a bit and pretend they’re other characters-they love that kind of activity … it actually takes the focus away from ‘I’m learning a language’ -makes a huge difference - they start to take ownership of it.

That said, you’re right in a sense that some teachers don’t have the confidence to speak Irish…let alone teach it, some use ‘the book’ as a crutch …and put that away after a lesson … tick a box and that’s Irish taught for the day & kids breathe a sigh of relief …sad 😞

👍 Child / student centered communication is key.

I wouldn’t be too worried about that. There’s different reasons for ex - their parents speaking English outside the gates - they just flip to English , but can flip back again just as easily if the environment is more conducive. The main thing is to nurture a positive attitude at a young age. In secondary school it’s cool to do your own thing - and get away with behaviour that’s not allowed in school - like speaking English - there are no sanctions outside school 🙂 Again, I think once the seed of positivity is sown it can bear fruit at a later stage.

That’s quite a good point. If Irish is being taught artificially well then that’s a problem. Having people teach it who don’t have it (like presuming all childcare workers would have a basic grasp…no way they would) - that’s artificial & ain’t gonna work.

‘They’ relates to the people with bad attitudes towards Irish.

Yep- no point wasting lots of resources on people with hardened attitudes. Some people could be be swayed to change attitudes ( like the Linda Irvine example) , but takes a lot more effort. Out of the 60% who can’t speak Irish (based on census) a percentage would be favourable, some indifferent and the rest … no interest in it.

Do you remember the Chinese couple who learned Irish (to be respectful to the culture) - applied to have their citizenship processed / granted through Irish and kept getting their application declined because, it was submitted ….. through Irish * facepalm * 😅

The bottom line is that this theory has been dismantled several times, most recently in the post above yours.

I suggested the no-exams idea a few pages back, but it got shot down by someone who failed to provide any reason, so I'm not sure where people feel on that issue.

It was more a case of kids 'automatically' picking up second languages. They don't. They need a set environment, as you say yourself in your second paragraph.

If it were the case, we'd have a much higher bilingual population than we do. Especially at preteen levels.