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Mica Redress

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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,901 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    I understand that it has come through the independent report.

    However, wouldn't a more accurate estimate of who is affected be obtained by going through the VAT records of the suppliers. That would identify those who purchased faulty bricks.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    It just seems a bit large for me. That would be nearly 340,000 euro for 100,000 homes. Is that really the scale of the problem? Genuine question I don't know.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,205 ✭✭✭cruizer101


    You've an extra 0 there 340,000 x 10,000 homes would be 3.4 billion.

    I'm not sure the details of it myself I think it does include demolition costs, alternative accommodation etc



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,049 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The banks dont lose out at all. The mortgages will likely still be paid. If all those affected refused to pay mortgages, then the banks could make serious losses as the repossessions wouldnt cover the cost of capital outstanding in most cases. However nothing as radical as that has been proposed yet.



  • Posts: 61 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The aim of the protest was in part to get 100% redress and in part to raise public awareness.

    Now that more people are asking questions due to the protest there is a lack of a coherent strategy to inform.

    10 years down the line a coupe of protests in Dublin and some YouTube videos with poor sound quality watched mainly by those affected is the extent of the public awareness campaign?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,410 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    So people will be paying a mortgage on a house that will be bulldozed and rebuilt with tax payers money????


    This sounds bizarre.



  • Posts: 61 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    They will be repaying a loan they drew down.

    It makes no difference if it is for a house/car/holiday. The condition of the asset makes no difference.

    I'm not sure why you find it bizarre.

    ---

    Basically those affected are demanding 100% of the costs to fix this problem and are saying that their demands should be met as the government did not regulate the manufacture of blocks sufficiently to ensure this did not happen.

    The government is not accepting the blame for this but is offering some financial help.

    Some other people in the country are not happy that there are demands being placed on them to pay towards a house nicer than they live in for someone they don't know and a house which they deem to be excessive for the needs of the family that live there and that the taxpayer is not there to protect the asset value or wealth of that family, but there are there to make sure there is a safe home for that family to live in. Those affected talk about the bank bailout protecting asset values and this does not help their cause and derails the conversation. Others discuss mental health which does not further the conversation on the format of the scheme and derails the conversation. Others block the M50 which changes the conversion from how can we help these people to why are they making me late.

    Others are saying that we live in a society where we basically all agree to pay to fix something like this, of which I am one, however most of us are not willing to pay whatever it takes to fix this to the exact demands of those affected. We think that these people need to have a safe home to live in but don't agree that it should be exactly the same house that they built, or at least that we should pay the total cost of it if that what they want but would be willing to contribute some of the costs in that case.

    Those affected have continued to demand 100% of the costs to rebuild their houses as they were and are not willing to compromise therefore there is now a standoff and nothing is getting done and it is on few if any of the national newspaper sites homepages 50 hours after the protest and 10 years after it started.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This house was built using a 3D printer which uses cement.

    'According to the company, the home is 1900 square feet and was built within 48 hours over an eight-day period, using less than $6,000 in materials.

    As they move on to their next print, the company hopes to cut print time in half for future'

    The house in the photo was built by US company called SQ4D.

    There are usually three people on site during the build. 2 people to man the 3D printer, and one to operate the computer.

    It is fairly new technology, and is currently being used to construct buildings in the US, China, Holland, UK and Germany.


    article here -> https://extra.ie/2021/05/05/property/3d-printed-homes-housing-crisis






  • Registered Users Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Suggestions such as timber frame and modular have all been mooted as solutions to the mica problem. A couple of factories could churn out a couple of varieties of standard house and a team of a couple of hundred builders could have them all sorted in a two-three years. Given the volume, economies of scale would apply too. The issue is that homeowners are holding out for 100% like-for-like replacements and forward thinking building technology solutions are rejected out of hand.

    Lack of acceptance of good enough alternatives that are more cost effective for the State is one of the reasons I don't fully support the "redress" campaign.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    There is no standoff. The people protesting are not in negotiations.

    They are lobbying the government, highlighting the issues but they're ordinary people with virtually zero leverage in what the government finally decides.

    So how can you say nothing is getting done as if that is in any due to the homeowners affected.

    I would love to know how many people posting here even knew mica was an issue 3 or 4years ago. The homeowners in badly affected homes certainly did.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,610 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    What people without Mica blocks are in a similar situation? I'm confused.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,402 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Renters paying thousands for a place they can never call home. There is a moral equivalence between those trapped renting and will never own and those that pay to own but won't own something durable.

    Both, 10,15 years down the line will have spent a lot of money and have nothing to show for it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 27,901 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    People who live near a cliff edge whose home is about to disappear into the sea because of climate change.

    People who live near the sea whose home is going to flood as the sea-level rises because of climate change.

    People whose homes are built on flood plains whose homes are going to flood because of climate change.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40


    Government are spending millions on flood defences. My taxes been spent to protect property owned by others.

    Yeah, I can support that.



  • Posts: 61 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    That is the rules of the society we live in.

    We house those that can't do it themselves but they don't get to demand the exact house which is to be built for them to live in *and own* at taxpayer expense.

    I have huge sympathy for those affected by Mica but believe that a compromise needs to be made if billions are to be paid.

    There is also the issue that if work on 7,000 houses is to be done it will take much of the construction industry so that people will struggle to build their own houses as there will be a more pronounced shortage of builders and possibly it will push up material prices so it will have a large negative impact on first time buyers who generally are very tight with money.

    If there is no compromise with a group who are 10 years into a lobbying campaign who have not received what they are demanding then what is expected to happen next? Why is there an expectation that the government will agree to all demands in the future?



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,610 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Re: your last paragraph.

    The lobbying hasn't been going on 10 years.

    The issue might have been known about for close on 10 years, but the Mica Action Group (MAG) was only set up in maybe 2015 or so. This group dealt with Gov and agreed to a 90/10 redress scheme. Problem is, an incredibly small number of people actually went into the scheme, due to the fact that it wasn't a real 90/10 scheme at all, it tended to work out more like a 60/40, or at best 70/30. So many homeowners, who could not afford any major costs at all, were being asked to stump up another 100k of their own money to cover the shortfall. The scheme didn't cover many costs like demolition, storage costs, rent while out of home,etc. In fact members of MAG didn't even avail of it.

    It was then the incident by Paddy Diver (early 2020 I think), when he blocked a lorry from the supplier in the road outside his house, simply cos he was that fed up with the fact that his house was falling down, and that they were still doing business and supplying blocks to people building their own homes. In fact, around that time, Donegal County Council were building a brand new social housing site near him, I think maybe 50 or 60 houses, and they were being built with the blocks from the same supplier. He went on FB and asked people to come join him on the road and block the company from supplying the new development. Thats when it all kicked off and snowballed. Thats the level of corruption and stupidity involved here. DonegalCoCo knew since at least 2014 that there was loads of defective blocks out there. They could see the damage on a lot of their existing housing estates, and indeed on their own office block in Carndonagh, yet they still were giving business to the block supplier who was causing all this.

    Anyway, so in reality the real pressure on Gov started from that point, basically saying the old scheme was balls and needed to be rethought. So its more like 18 months worth of lobbying, not 10years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 33,610 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    Re: those 3d printed houses.

    Why aren't those being used in Dublin, to solve the housing shortage?


    Probably an argument for a different thread.



  • Registered Users Posts: 68,798 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Because there's no way they'd meet building standards. And it's basically just slipform concrete which was used to build houses here in the past; but isn't anymore as it makes houses which are cold, damp, very difficult to insulate and upgrade, and other issues



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This technology will be here soon. Houses are being built in the US, China, The Netherlands, Germany using 3D cement printing, and the houses are being built to meet the regulations in those countries. These houses are not sub-standard. Double or triple cavity walls can be built easily. To suggest that 3D printed houses would be cold, damp and hard to insulate is rubbish.

    Houses can now be built for a fraction of what they would normally cost as it greatly reduce the labour cost and they can be built in a matter of days.

    It would be the perfect solution to solve the mica blocks scandal.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    This youtube video is from 6 years ago. 3d house printing is nothing new in China. The cement printer price range is from €200k - €1.5 million depending on size.




  • Registered Users Posts: 7,049 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    The houses are far from some miracle invention - and they havent been around long enough to be properly evaluated either.

    And the economy of scale for 3d printing houses (equipment, materials, expertise) does not exist at all in this country, or in most.

    Finally, any alterations to the design of existing houses will require fresh planning permissions. 3d printed houses are not a solution given the timeframe involved, most houses will have totally crumbled by the time 3d printed houses become mainstream in this country.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    3D house printing in Germany will revolutionise the construction industry.




  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,309 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    @Nody, I think you know where I am coming from with this idea. Lets focus on Germany, the US, The Netherlands and United Arab Emirates instead. This technology was field tested in China 6 or 7 years ago, and it has been honed and improved on in several different countries since. By 2030, Dubai are planning that 30% of new buildings there will be built using this technology.


    @timmyntc, how hard would it be for the Irish government to award a construction contract for an estate of houses, to a German or Dutch 3d house printing company, as a test project to see how it would turn out, timeframe, quality etc. and while they are here, they could train in people on how the technology works. This way the government could evaluate the cost effectiveness of rebuilding mica houses using this method, compared with the old traditional construction methods which would seem to be much more time consuming, and a lot more costly.


    If the Germans have certified this building method under its national building regulations, then is that not good enough evidence that they have full confidence in 3D house printing?



  • Posts: 61 ✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think you mentioned at one point that you are affected by Mica?

    Are you happy about how the lobbying campaign is being run? Of approximately 7,000 households at present which are affected who decided upon the leadership of the group which seems to be a handful of people representing houseowners and it's demands and strategies?



  • Registered Users Posts: 46,095 ✭✭✭✭muffler




  • Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭VillageIdiot71


    You know, the more you think of it the more you come to the conclusion that Donegal County Council should be directly elected by the people of Donegal. It obviously needs to be under the authority of a group local public representatives.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,811 ✭✭✭joe40




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  • Registered Users Posts: 578 ✭✭✭VillageIdiot71


    Exactly what it says. Donegal people should get to elect their own local Council. All of these guys should have to be elected:

    https://www.donegalcoco.ie/yourcouncil/yourcouncillors/



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