Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

TRC10 · 12-10-2021 10:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011629#Comment_118011629

Remember the England game in March, when James Ryan was injured. He was replaced in the starting XV by Conan (a back row), and Beirne moved up into the 2nd row.

If Coombes or Doris or POM is playing really well and James Ryan isn't. Play Beirne at lock and you open up a spot in the back row.

Yeah_Right · 12-10-2021 11:33pm

I don't actually remember that. So who was the replacement lock?

awec · 12-10-2021 11:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011876#Comment_118011876

Baird.

Yeah_Right · 12-10-2021 11:46pm

So Beirne replaced Ryan at lock. Conan came into the starting XV and Baird came onto the bench. I don't see how that equates to Conan replacing Ryan.

TRC10 · 12-10-2021 11:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011913#Comment_118011913

Ryan out

Conan in

Beirne moves from 6 to lock

Jump_In_Jack · 13-10-2021 1:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118011629#Comment_118011629

It's fairly simple, Beirne is a starter, so if it's a choice between 6 or 4, that means it's a choice of whether there is a better option at 6 than 4 and move Beirne to the other position.

e.g. O'Mahony playing well, Ryan playing average, therefore Beirne starts 4 and O'Mahony 6, assuming Henderson is at 5.

Alternatively, Ryan playing well, no great option at 6 playing well, Ryan partners Henderson, and Beirne assumes No. 6 position.

That's all assuming Dillane isn't playing better than Ryan, and Henderson is available.

Must love hardship · 13-10-2021 1:37pm

I see Wales and Scotland have announced November squads..

Any idea when we are due to announce ours ?

shootermacg · 13-10-2021 2:15pm

Will have to start putting Fineen Wycherley into the second row conversation. He was a stand out performer vs Scarlets and good god he's after packing on some weight. Called the last 3 lineouts for Munster too.

Yeah_Right · 13-10-2021 2:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013666#Comment_118013666

Yeah I get that. However there is always going to be at least 3 players in the match day 23 covering the 2nd row right? At least 4 covering the loose forwards. Saying that Coombes, Doris, Deegan or Conan playing well could result in Ryan getting dropped doesn't make sense to me. There would have to be 3 guys playing better than him in the 2nd row for that to happen.

Former Former Former · 13-10-2021 2:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118013666#Comment_118013666

It's fairly simple, Beirne is a starter

While I would pick him myself, I don't think we're quite at the point where we can say that Beirne will definitely start and we will move everyone else around him. We still don't really know how Farrell regards him or where Farrell thinks his best position is.

TRC10 · 13-10-2021 2:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014356#Comment_118014356

Saying that Coombes, Doris, Deegan or Conan playing well could result in Ryan getting dropped doesn't make sense to me.

If it still doesn't make sense after being explained about 3 times, than it probably never will.

Ryan was literally replaced in the XV by a back row in Ireland's last meaningful game.

He could have been replaced by Roux, Dillane, Baird, Toner or any other lock, but he wasn't, he was replaced by Conan (a back row) because Beirne's versatility allowed it. It's very simple

Before Ryan's injury...

4-Henderson

5-Ryan

6-Beirne

After Ryan's injury...

4-Henderson

5-Beirne

6-Conan (He actually played 8 and Stander switched to 6 but the personnel didn't change)

Tomtom364 · 13-10-2021 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014356#Comment_118014356

He said they could force Ryan out of the starting team. Not the 23 man squad.

So (when assuming Henderson & Beirne are must starts) on the basis that Henderson starts in the Second row and Bierne Starts either in the second or back row then Coombes/Doris etc form could very well decide that Bierne starts in the second row and thus keeping Ryan to the bench. If however Ryan found great form he could keep Beirne at 6 over Coombes/Doris etc.

Yeah_Right · 13-10-2021 3:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014506#Comment_118014506

It's right there. Beirne replaced Ryan in the 2nd row. Conan came into the loosies for Beirne. The big issue in all that is that Baird couldn't force his way in to the starting XV despite Ryan being injured.

Jump_In_Jack · 13-10-2021 3:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014356#Comment_118014356

That's going further than the point that was made, that Ryan could lose his starting spot to Beirne if Beirne played lock instead of back row.

That's of course assuming Henderson is fit and firing.

Beirne and Henderson were both selected for the Lions, and Ryan wasn't, so it's a straight forward conclusion to make that they should be in the starting 15 ahead of Ryan.

Dillane off the bench is also a good option, so if it were Dillane v Ryan for the bench, I'd rather some impact, not sure Ryan can offer the same impact that Dillane does.

TRC10 · 13-10-2021 3:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014760#Comment_118014760

Oh dear jesus

If we're narrowing the entire issue down to the 2nd row, yes, Beirne did replace Ryan in the 2nd row. But that was never the point.

Ryan was replaced by Conan in the starting XV, Beirne's versatility allowed that. Surely you can get your head around that? It's so simple.

How is a 21 year old lock not being able to force himself into the starting XV for a 6 Nations game v England a "big issue"? Baird is a baby in 2nd row terms.

If you have a world class player in Beirne who is equally adept at lock or at 6, and an experienced backrower in Conan who is in top form and has never let Ireland down (and would end up being the Lions starting 8). Surely you make use of Beirne's versatility and bring in the experienced international quality backrower, rather than bringing in the talented albeit very raw and inexperienced lock.

Yeah_Right · 13-10-2021 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014779#Comment_118014779

I agree. Ryan could lose his starting spot to Beirne and on form of last season, deserves to. Also agree that Dillane would be a better bench option than Ryan based on their style of play. Dillane brings impact where as I feel Ryan either starts or doesn't play. Similar to Toner.

Will be interesting to see how Beirne and Henderson go when they return. When are they due back? Only seen highlights of Leinster's matches so far this season, how is Ryan going?

molloyjh · 13-10-2021 5:19pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014905#Comment_118014905

Going better than last season so far. But would like to be seeing a bit more from him. He was captain for that utter sh!tshow in Newport where we seemed to really lack leadership. But he was good against the Bulls. That said, it’s 2 games so not a great sample size. No doubt he’ll start this weekend and probably next so we’ll be in a better place to judge then.

I know loads of people are only too eager to declare their incredible knowledge and insights, but if Ryan can show form this week and next then he’s in the conversation to start.

Beirne had a very good season last season but I don’t buy this “he has to start”. For me that’s reserved for the truly world class players of which we don’t really have many at the moment. Porter, Furlong, Sexton and Henshaw might fit that bill but even with those there’s a debate to be had. Guys like POC, SOB and BOD in their pomp were guys who “had to start” because they were just that good compared to not just their competition in Ireland but their competition globally. I don’t put Beirne into that category right now.

Must love hardship · 13-10-2021 6:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118014905#Comment_118014905

Henderson is out with a thumb injury again. Not sure if all the same hand injury but he seems to have had a number of thumb/hand injuries over the last 5 or 6 years.

Yeah_Right · 13-10-2021 6:50pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015240#Comment_118015240

Cheers for that.

I think the only Irish players that can walk back into the test team from injury with no game time are Porter and Furlong. Sexton maybe. Because there is no challenger. And he would probably get re-injured if he tried to play some warm up games first 😆

I believe all the other players would need to find some form before being guaranteed starters. I think Ryan and Henshaw are 2 that if they consistently play at their highest level, will be guaranteed starters even when coming back from injury. They're not there yet.

aloooof · 13-10-2021 6:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015240#Comment_118015240

“I know loads of people are only too eager to declare their incredible knowledge and insights, but if Ryan can show form this week and next then he’s in the conversation to start.”

Has anyone actually said he isn’t in the conversation tho, Molloy?

People have said their preference is Henderson and Beirne from what I’ve read. That doesn’t mean they think Ryan isn’t in conversation.

Must love hardship · 13-10-2021 7:08pm

Id be very happy to have some combination of Bierne, Henderson and Ryan in my 23 for the next few years with Baird, Dillane, wycherley or even moloney filling out the other squad positions.

Dubinusa · 13-10-2021 8:07pm

Everyone fails to realize that Ryan had a season marred with injury. That was why he didn't get a run. I think a slew of games and we'll see where he's at. He's been good so far this season.

leakyboots · 13-10-2021 9:24pm

I'm a Munster fan but surprised people think Wycherley is in with a shout. It's good he's getting experience in and around the squad but he's still a good way off for me. I personally have my doubts he'll make the grade internationally. He does have that bit of dog in him that POM has though and he'll be 24 soon so still time to improve but I have my doubts.

Aherne on the other hand looks to be a potential star, we'll see how that works out. Let's see how he goes this season with his gametime. The Snyman injury could offer him more minutes than might have happened otherwise.

I do think Coombes is going to be our next 8, we don't produce many big lumps like that, Ferris was our last one. Massive threat over the ball, has nice hands and unstoppable from a few yards out. 19 tries in 39 starts is outrageous for a backrow, even at URC level (I think he got a try on his Heineken debut too?). He set a record for tries scored for Munster in the season in his breakout season. Still only 23 (born on the same day as Fineen actually!). Munster have him listed as a lock/backrow but has he played much in the 2nd row? He'd offer serious oomph if he did but I love him at 8, 6 not so much.

Plenty of competition in the backrow with the likes of Conan, Deegan and Doris, we're well stacked thankfully for the future.

Former Former Former · 13-10-2021 11:16pm

I suppose the other factor is there are only two rounds of provincial games left before the tests, and a lot of the likely test players have either yet to feature or hardly featured at all. So no-one is really going to have any 'form', plus the current URC games are no measure of test ability anyway.

So team selection for the tests is going to be based on a mixture of past performances, proven quality and what they show in training.

eagle eye · 13-10-2021 11:44pm

I must have missed a bunch of games if people are saying Ryan isn't good enough. I'm struggling to remember him having a poor game.

TRC10 · 14-10-2021 12:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017168#Comment_118017168

Nobody's saying he isn't good enough.

I don't think anyone would be worried if Ryan was starting in the 2nd row v the ABs.

But other players have been playing better over the last 12 months.

I don't think you should ever pick a team purely on form, but it should definitely be a factor.

I was slow to get onboard the Gavin Coombes hype train, but based on what he's shown over the last 12 months and what our pack lacks that he can offer, I'd find it difficult to leave him out right now.

Jump_In_Jack · 14-10-2021 12:59am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016440#Comment_118016440

Best backrow combination right now IMO would be 6. Beirne, 7. Timoney, 8. Coombes, 20. Leavy.

i’d imagine what would be preferred by Farrell would be 6. O’Mahony, 7. Van der Flier, 8. Conan, 20. Doris.

Must love hardship · 14-10-2021 5:57pm

Following on from a tweet Murray kinsella had out earlier about Italy A.

With the next 6 nations about 18 months out from a world cup and with less club games this year during the 6 nations would it be of any benefit to have a number of Ireland A/wolfhounds games next spring?

The Last 2 years u20 campaigns were curtailed too with no u20 Wc and a shortened 6 nations. It could help the progression of those players too.

TRC10 · 14-10-2021 10:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118020899#Comment_118020899

If they don't clash with URC games and we actually pick young players and not 27/28 year olds, than yeah it could be beneficial. I don't see how a mid 20s fringe player playing with 14 other mid 20s fringe players against a team of mid 20s fringe players helps anyone,

A Wolfhounds summer tour would be great.

leakyboots · 14-10-2021 11:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017282#Comment_118017282

There's a good few players there who can slot in without dipping quality too much in my opinion or we don't know yet what they're capable of... I've no idea what our best backrow is.

Beirne is in great form last we saw of him, Conan was a test Lion which I wouldn't have thought he was capable of and held his own, Connors and VdF have nothing between them for me as Connors upped his game majorly last season. POM on his day is a force. Timoney, like Coombes, looks to have the goods also but a bit unknown at this level. I'd like to see more of Timoney, at whose expense I've no idea. Doris, Leavy at his best... in another era a player like JOD might be around the squad for his versatility, Deegan is knocking at the door.

You can sort of take your pick. I don't think we've been as blessed in the backrow for as long as I've been following rugby, you could come up with multiple combinations... the quality remains to be seen but I don't think we've the luxury of messing about with combinations unfortunately.

So I can't say I'd be too upset if anyone named above was picked, unless their form in the run up wasn't good.

I'd put Beirne in the row if Henderson/Ryan are injured/out of form, I'd love a Coombes 8/Doris 6 combination and let POM/VdF/Connors battle it out for the 7. Ditto Timoney/Conan/Leavy for the bench.

I'm probably leaving someone out!

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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