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The Irish protocol.

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    No, you're overthinking this. A thriving NI and a floundering GB will not be a problem for Brexiters. Nobody in GB pays any attention to what goes on in NI, and they will readily filter out any comparison between GB and NI on the basis that NI is too weird a place for anything that happens there to have any signficance for what happens or might happen on what they fondly think of as "the mainland".



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Don’t think I ever said protocol was working well?

    I am being a realist. We all need protocols to make this unusual situation work effectively.

    I desire that we evolve into a situation where all sides have some trust built and use common sense to make it work.

    the devil is in the detail (negotiations). I wouldn’t have any red lines but I don’t want a situation where one side is the final judge over issues - that would be highly unusual and clearly unfair and could lead to a battle a day as divergence takes place. I think a mixture of Uk and Eu judges or a neutral body.

    as for protests - unionists have already protested many times in London, most recently the other day, so don’t understand this question. I assume it doesn’t make the news like previous Dublin protests as those protesting are never attacked.

    last weekend in London https://fb.watch/8B5iQIwATJ/



  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    If you don't want the EU to have the final say over the EU Single Market which Northern Ireland is in, then write to your local representative and ask for the protocol to be binned so you're not in the Single Market.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I said in here a few years ago that we my community had been slow learners but learnt a lot watching the ‘crocodiles being fed’ and sf just keeping asking for more and more.

    so I am fully behind our politicians trying to get their cake and eat it. If they fail then we now have a decent fall back position. So I’d say we’ll keep asking for everything and see where we land.

    tbh I am surprised how quickly we have got this far



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭rock22


    So you are not really interested in solving this for businesses in NI. You just want to continue to cause as much disruption as possible and see haow far you can get? i.e. keep throwing your toys out of the pram until you get attention? I think we all now that the DUP and Frost have no real interest in resolving this mess. The question is how much the UK Government agree with you.

    Comparison with SF are irrelevant, they are a political party who are pursuing real political solutions to the unique situation in NI.

    the operation of the Single Market is overseen and adjudicated by the ECJ. That applies whether you are Amazon or artisan making homemade bread for export. If you want access to the single market then you must abide by that arbitration. Even if an arbitration process is set up to deal with NI it will be subject to the rulings of the ECJ.

    Remember that the peoples of NI are getting access to the Single Market because of the perceived Irishness and hence EU citizenship not because of any links to GB. Are you suggesting that the rules should apply to everyone else but not those Irish people living in NI?



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  • Posts: 17,378 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It isn't more. It isn't cake. It isn't even food.

    The initial backstop was an amazing fall back keeping NI fully aligned with Great Britain. Unionists scuppered it and it turned out it wasn't a fall back. Now the NIP is working well with improvements on the way. If unionists scupper it, it won't be there as a fall back.

    I have to say this post is the most cliche unionist thing I've read in a while. You want it just because someone said you can't have it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,035 ✭✭✭✭J Mysterio


    What a ridiculous comment. Lord give me strength.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,124 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Other countries don't need Leo to tell them that. They are already fully aware of the UK's record on that front.

    The benefit of his soundbyte is that there is a chance that UK red tops will publish it and some of the ignorant among the population might understand the consequences of their elected, and unelected, betters' untrustworthy behaviour. Tiny chance of course but no harm done trying



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The UK is being criticised for behaviour that other countries are criticised for, and your instinct is to shoot the messenger? Would it not occur to you to wonder why other countries are never criticised in this way? Could it possibly have anything to do with the UK's egregious behaviour?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,508 ✭✭✭KildareP


    Interested to see how this all plays out.

    Part of me wonders is it a case of the EU offering up changes, relatively safe in the knowledge the overall offer is never going to be accepted anyway... Or will be accepted but thrown back at them in the near future anyway...

    If the UK turn this down - which it seems even the dogs on the street are expecting they will - then this can only inevitably lead to an all out trade war. Good bye to any NI focused "wins" out of the last 72 hours worth of events.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,124 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    What is ridiculous about it? Why wouldn't anyone be fed up with those crocodiles going on and on and on. Saying that they deserved "equal rights" and equal access to jobs and housing and then also asking for that State sponsored forces stop shooting them randomly on the street. The cheek of them asking for fairness and equality.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 352 ✭✭Snugbugrug28


    This is a tough one for the UK to turn down publically. To do so absolutely reveals their bad intentions. I actually think that they should be billed for the time they have wasted negotiating the protocol if they never intended to honour it in the first place.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I think the European convention of human rights will be the next claim. The ecj having authority over ni while ni people cannot vote for it appears in direct contradiction to it.



  • Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ Taliyah Massive Ax


    Yeah, human rights, what a waste of time, who wants that anyway ?

    Whats different now though - sure according to the EU Quitters, apparently we weren't able to vote for anything while we were in the EU either, remember ? Unelected bureaucrats, etc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭85603


    The supply chain crisis is going to have the most beautifully ironic influence on this political issue.


    Was it caued by Brexit?

    Doesnt matter. Personally I dont think it was (all) Brexits fault.

    But thats the delicious bit. Remainers now get to lie (if they want) and point at Brexit and piss and moan and blame, honestly or not. (Leading Brexiteers werent so honest)

    When GB has a sht Christmas, with no toys and the memory of no fuel, patience for anything Brexit will be next to zero.

    Remainers will just have to say its all Brexits fault, just like Farage said its all the EUs fault ... including illegal migrants (brexits really proving its hollow promise on that one).

    And the knee jerker demographic will believe.

    There'll be fck all time for NI unionist opinion, from the pissed off GB population.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,817 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    No, what would be in direct contradiction to it would be if the UK had no choice to remove NI from the Single Market.

    The UK have this option, so that is a completely incorrect conclusion. The UK have intentionally knowingly placed NI into the Single Market with all the associated regulation that entails.

    Do the NI Unionist parties not understand that there are other countries in the Single Market that also don't vote for it, but are happy to accept the ECJ?



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    1. NI thankfully has decent human rights in place, much of the thanks goes to the EU. Up until recently, London didn't mind the many human rights abuses that went on in NI and in fact celebrated them.
    2. The UK's human rights laws have been until recently passed down from Europe and other places. Raab is planning on removing many of these "nonsensical" laws. Can we presume from your flippant remark that this something that you agree with?
    3. The London government proposed a solution that involved the ECJ having involvement in disputes. Are you confirming that the UK government were wrong to do this?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,648 ✭✭✭rock22


    I think you are only trolling now.

    But just to take you serious for a minute, what has the ECJ got to do with the ECHR.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,816 ✭✭✭ArthurDayne


    The European Convention on Human Rights, and of course the European Court of Human Rights, are not creations or institutions of the European Union. The ECHR has 47 signatory nations, which include Russia.

    The erroneous conflation of the ECHR and the EU has long been happily tolerated by Eurosceptics as a way of blaming the faceless Brussels Bureaucrats for situations like blocked deportations of undesirables when oft times those cases revolve around said undesirables relying on the articles of the ECHR.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,393 ✭✭✭Grassey




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,867 ✭✭✭donspeekinglesh


    As pointed out already, the ECHR is nothing to do with the EU. It's also part of the Good Friday Agreement:

    The British Government will complete incorporation into Northern Ireland law of the European Convention on Human Rights (ECHR), with direct access to the courts, and remedies for breach of the Convention, including power for the courts to overrule Assembly legislation on grounds of inconsistency.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    The article that says "nobody can be subject to the jurisdiction of a court that they haven't elected".

    You know, the article that has already been invoked in NI to exclude the jurisdiction of the UK Supreme Court, the Court of Appeal of Northern Ireland, the High Court of Northern Ireland, the County Court of Northern Ireland and the Magistrates Court of Northern Ireland, none of which are elected. 🙄

    I'm old enough to remember the days when Downcow put a bit of thought into his trolliing. How the mighty are fallen.

    .



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    Now you are just trolling or being silly.

    Our judiciary are appointed by the NI Judiciary Appointments Committee and they are appointed by the ministers we elect. So the trail goes back to people we can elect or otherwise.

    now you tell me how I can vote for anyone who controls the appointment of Eu judiciary?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Well, you can't vote for anyone who controls the appointment of the members of the UK Supreme Court, so I don't see why this should be such a stumbling block.

    The issue is not really whether you can vote for the judges, or for those who appoint them. The issue is whether you can vote for those who decide whether NI will, or will not, be subject to EU law and the courts that interpret it. The answer is that you can vote for those people; you have voted for those people; and they have decided that NI will be subject in certain respects to EU law and the ECJ. All perfectly democratic.

    Others have asked you to cite the article(s) of the ECHR that you believe are violated by this arrangement and I note that you haven't replied. Are you going to persist with that claim, or quietly abandon it?



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    So you all completely refused to be specific about which changes, renegotiations, easements (whatever you want to call them) Eu would or wouldn’t allow.

    we know exactly why and we know that although you don’t admit it, you are surprised how far the Eu have gone under Uk pressure.

    so who will stick their neck out on the ECJ. Seems many of you are saying that there is no way Eu will make changes to its operation in ni while ni stays in single market?

    I was correct on all my predictions so far and I will go again. I believe that the Eu WILL make some changes to how the single market is overseen in ni that will be unique to ni?

    anyone like to agree, disagree, or hide ?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 255 ✭✭Iecrawfc


    i wouldnt be suprised to see some small movements on oversight from the EU, if only to pull the rug out from under Boris/Frost and their Unionist nodding dogs, they'll be trying to think of another 'red' line to fall back on, anything but work the protocol.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,629 ✭✭✭Fionn1952


    Correct on all your predictions so far, Downcow?!?

    Catch yourself on. You've performed about as accurately as a stopped clock. You've been wrong more times since this thread started than I've had warm dinners, and I never miss a meal.

    Christ almighty.


    You've been told time and time again that the easements NI will be offered could be very far reaching, but the NI Protocol would not be renegotiated. This is as specific as one could possibly get given that you don't seem to really know what you want yourself and we don't know what compromise will come from the British side also. Your prediction that the EU will make some changes unique to NI.....well you're about as helpful as a weatherman standing in a downpour telling us there's a 70% chance it's raining. Predicting what is and has already happened is hardly Mystic Meg stuff.


    I'll happily stick my neck out and say there is no way NI will remain in the single market without being subject to ECJ oversight. The alternative to ECJ oversight is the complete collapse of the NI Protocol, which I'd hate to see but would be a perfect example of the constant ability of Unionism to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,629 ✭✭✭✭downcow


    I’m no lawyer and there is a more relevant bit I need to hoke out. But for starters.

    Echr article 3

    “The High Contracting Parties undertake to hold free elections at reasonable intervals by secret ballot, under conditions which will ensure the free expression of the opinion of the people in the choice of the legislature.”

    given that legislature means “ A legislature is a governing body that makes laws and can also amend or repeal them.”

    seems pretty clear to me that the 1.8m people in ni cannot express an opinion in the choice of this legislature



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,647 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Your very first prediction in this thread - in post #1, no less - was that the NI Protocol would be declared illegal by the NI High Court. That was wrong. So you belief that you have been correct on all your predictions so far rests on the ability to simply forget the predictions that have not been correct.

    Will the EU "make some changes to how the single market is overseen in NI that will be unique to NI"? Well, the current arrangements for oversight of the Single Market in NI are already unique to NI, so any refinement of those arrangements will also be unique to NI. So I think this prediction is correct. But it's not a very adventurous prediction; it can only be falsified if the EU makes no changes at all, which we already know will is not the EU's intention.

    Will the EU agree to end the jurisdiction of the ECJ in NI? To grapple with this, it probably helps to come to terms with why the NIP gives the ECJ jurisdiction in NI in the first place.

    1. Everyone will readily agree that the EU, like anyone else, is entitled to have, and apply, its own rules about what does, or does not, enter the Single Market.
    2. But, as everyone has already agreed, the application of those rules at the NI/RoI border would result in a hard border in Ireland, which both the UK and the EU have ruled out.
    3. So, after a couple of false starts, the solution to this problem that has been agreed is basically this: On behalf of the EU, the UK will operate the external border of the Single Market, so that goods imported into NI and which will or may be reexported to the Single Market are qualified for entry under Single Market rules.
    4. What this effectively is is the EU authorising the UK to police a section of its external border, and the UK committing itself to do so.
    5. Crucially, what the UK will be doing here is applying EU rules. Although applied by the UK authorities, they remain EU rules. And, if there is any dispute about EU rules, hat they mean, how they work, that dispute is resolved in EU courts, just as disputes about UK rules are resolved in UK courts.

    There's something of an analogy in the arrangements for the Common Travel Area, under which a traveller arriving in Heathrow but headed for Ireland will be denied entry at Heathrow if he doesn't have whatever visa or other documentation he requires as a matter of Irish law to enter Ireland (and vice versa for a traveller arriving at, say, Shannon but headed for London). In such a case, if the traveller is turned away at Heathrow because he has been denied the visa he needs, and if he wants to challenge that denial in the courts, he doesn't head off to the English courts; he heads off to the Irish courts to challenge the action of the Minister who denied him a visa. The rule may have been applied to him in England, by a UK immigration official, but its an Irish rule; the Irish courts are the proper jurisdiction for thrashing out disputes about those rules. (And, again, vice versa if he is turned away at Shannon because he has been denied a UK visa).

    It's basically the same here. The UK authorities have agreed to apply rules of EU law to the import of goods into NI. The proper court for interpreting those rules and establishing their meaning, and for arbitrating disputes about the application of those rules, is the ECJ. The UK understood that well when they negotiated, signed, ratified and enacted into law the Withdrawal Agreement. The pretence now of Lord Frost to regard it as an insufferable outrage is not a convincing one; if he really believed that, wouldn't he resign in shame? If the Tory party in general believed that, wouldn't they demand his head on a plate?

    So, this is a confected row over a bogus issue, and unionists should not allow themselves to be used in this way by people who, quite frankly, despise the union but regard unionists as useful idiots.

    Will the EU agree to change the arrangement in regard to the ECJ? My guess is probably no, but I think there is a less than 50% chance that they will agree to a token change - e.g. an extra layer is inserted into the process before questions of EU law arising under the Protocol are referred to the ECJ; something of that kind.



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  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 40,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Go on - you take a legal challenge to the NIP based on that. We'll all come along and watch!

    The gas thing is thatv unionists probably now believe that the human rights of people in NI are being infringed yet were happy with the likes of internment without trial, shoot to kill, etc. Human rights are ok as long as themuns don't have them seems to be the way!

    Given that a few weeks ago you weren't aware who was Taoioseach, you certainly now appear to be an expert in both politics and law!



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