The creeping prominence of the Irish language

Jump_In_Jack · 13-10-2021 8:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015436#Comment_118015436

not so, the person made an uninformed statement about forgetting a language, it never goes away, a small bit of revision will always bring it back easily.

and the most important point was completely missed, learning a language empowers a child in the ability to learn a language, that’s simply irrefutable.

it Would be extremely foolish to deny a child the opportunity to develop their ability to learn a language, when they may need to learn a new language when they are older, and it will make it easier to learn another language if a person has already learned another language.

that’s only one point, plenty other reasons, but that point on its own is enough to end the debate.

Evade · 13-10-2021 8:24pm

Ah yes, my own experience of going from fluent to essentially no ability at all is misinformed. Do I have any other thoughts you'd like to share? Some of it probably would come back with study but learning something as a child does not a lifelong skill make.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 13-10-2021 10:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016072#Comment_118016072

Which person? I replied to a post you made that quoted no one.

I'd agree with your other points but - again - it's not automatic. We teach kids two languages for fourteen years and very little results. So teaching kids a second language is a moot point.

If I was as passionate about the Irish language as soome of the people on this thread claim to be, I'd be up in arms about that, rather than feeling smug about a few roads bilungual train announcements.

deirdremf · 13-10-2021 10:37pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118002517#Comment_118002517

No, Gaelic means what is spoken in parts of Scotland; in Ireland we call it Irish. Even in Kerry.

deirdremf · 13-10-2021 10:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118006073#Comment_118006073

I don't think there's anything specifically Irish about either rugby or Beyonce, but whatever rocks your boat!

deirdremf · 13-10-2021 10:53pm

English changed and continued to change and changes today and so rapidly because of its advantages in many areas and widespread use across different cultures who added to it because of empire(not so good) and trade which brought many influences to bear(not least the Irish). This is a fair sign of its utility. Why you include it as some sort of pidgen or creole language is beyond me. And an educated English speaker could understand most of Chaucer just as fairly easily too. What's your point? My point still remains; Irish is not close to the most ancient spoken language in Europe as was claimed/believed earlier. As I said Greek both in the written and spoken form nukes it from orbit as far as antiquity goes. Never mind the legacy of art, law, engineering, science and philosophy contained within that history.

The reason I call English a creole is because under the influence of the Normans the language previously spoken in England - Anglo-Saxon - became something completely different; not completely different from what Chaucer wrote, but from Anglo-Saxon.

It was this influence from Norman French that started English on the process that made it what it is today. And as someone who is currently reading Chaucer, I am in the position to compare it to 14th century Irish - and Chaucer - while having a great deal in common with modern English - is much further from it than 14th century Irish is from modern Irish. In my informed opinion, might I add!

deirdremf · 13-10-2021 11:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118010150#Comment_118010150

if kids were sponges, they be picking the langauge up already, woudn't they?

Studies into learning second languages have shown that 5,000 contact hours are required for fluency. This is why so many kids leave school without fluency in Irish. It is also why all Gaelscoil pupils who have gone the whole way through the system in that environment become fluent in Irish - maths, sports etc through Irish, these are also contact hours. As also would be TV, cinema, radio, netflix and so on.

A study carried out in the Basque country where there are three school systems - Basque, Spanish and Bilingual - found that only the Basque-language education brought about generalised fluency. Obviously the bilingual education was an improvement over Spanish as the vehicular language with Basque just as a subject. And of course, even the latter produced some fluent speakers - because some people will have contact hours outside of the school setting.

So the kids being sponges isn't sufficient - more is needed!

13-10-2021 11:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016889#Comment_118016889

The story is that Bono wrote some of the lyrics of the song Bad based on a traumatic experience with the Modh Coinníollach.

"If I could, you know I would, if I could, I would"

Apparently Larry Mullen gave him a slap and said "Let it go, Bono. Let it feckin' go."

(The above may be true)

Fishdoodle · 13-10-2021 11:17pm

😂 -Had to laugh at that one! Maith Thú Ulysses!

deirdremf · 13-10-2021 11:18pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015182#Comment_118015182

I'd doubt that, to be honest. Speaking a few languages myself, I'd say it takes a very special type of effort.

But then I've met people who absolutely don't, cannot, never would, speak language X but when they found themselves in a fix it suddenly was there.

deirdremf · 13-10-2021 11:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017052#Comment_118017052

I always thought that what I hated about U2 was the not-so-subtle underlying Xtian-ish feel to their efforts. Sort of Narnia to a pop tune.

You've just made me realise that there's a second reason!

Vestiapx · 13-10-2021 11:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117969267#Comment_117969267

Ok but if they were crapnat it at in school and they were they mocked by some Irish speaking teacher who was crapnat being a nice teacher and only good at speaking iraih and made fun of them for not being good at Irish.

They might carry that weight now and maybe what goes around comes around.

I was great at school and I got to choose my leaving subjects and I can't do language. So while I was happy to carry a pass in the leaving in Irish I never saw my applied maths or physics teachers make fun of people for being bad at applied maths but I got it in the ear for not being able to discuss an bochtach in Irish.

Tell the secondary teachers they are ambassadors for the language and that making people hate them and their stupid school subject will not do the language any favourites

13-10-2021 11:33pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017108#Comment_118017108

PTSD, or neamhord strus iarthrámach. No matter what other explanations are available, you can blame almost any lyric you've ever heard on that. 😁

Upforthematch · 13-10-2021 11:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118008301#Comment_118008301

In a sense the approach has worked. It is a compromise. The 40pc who want Irish in their lives have those opportunities, the 60pc can pretty well ignore it after age 18 unless they follow TG4 sport.

I think your ideas could be counterproductive.

Realistically there would be no saving at second level, sure all those Irish language teachers have permanent contracts, would the state pay degrees for them to retrain to teach other subjects?

And making Irish optional at primary level sounds expensive. It would have to be out of hours to be truly optional so extra p/t primary teachers would need to be employed. Not sure how much money would be saved.

Besides, 20pc of civil servants will need to have Irish by 2030 according to the latest language bill going through the oireachtas. Why make irish optional when it could limit these kids future opportunities?

13-10-2021 11:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017113#Comment_118017113

I didn't do applied maths. My physics teacher used to thump people for getting stuff wrong. It was the 1970s, so that's just how it was. We also had a history teacher who used to hit people for getting stuff wrong. However, in what may have been an attempt at balance he also regularly hit people for getting stuff right. I never pursued a career in either physics or history, but I've a passing interest in both subjects and I've read a decent number of books on both. I've even tried to keep up with a lecturer doing his best to explain the Copenhagen Interpretation to me, in Irish, while both of us had a few pints on us. The following day it's safe to say that his understanding of the matter was still better than mine, but sure look.

Timmyr · 13-10-2021 11:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015810#Comment_118015810

Yes they do, soooo much

13-10-2021 11:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017172#Comment_118017172

I'd imagine there's a lot to unpack in what they have to say.

Evade · 13-10-2021 11:49pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017079#Comment_118017079

You should see me when I hear Irish language news on the radio or tv then. I can assure you all but the most basic things (time, day of the week, etc but that mostly comes from inference clues) goes over my head.

I used to be able to do higher level leaving cert differentiatial equations in my head too but I can't even remember how to do them now, you loose skills you don't use.

Sunny Disposition · 14-10-2021 1:11am

Can’t speak Irish but kind of enjoy it, strange as that may seem.

Enjoy TG4 commentary on hurling, don’t even like soaps but I like Ros na Run, sometimes put on radio na Gaeltacht but that’s a bit beyond me.

Like this creeping stuff referred to, but it’d be great if there was a bit more stuff. Heard of a rural pub that used have Gaeilge nights which was a good idea.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-10-2021 8:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016889#Comment_118016889

So... the entire world of sport and music consists solely of one woman and one game...? Bizarre

14-10-2021 9:18am

Considering the amount of gaelscoileanna opening, and they all being oversubscribed, it does feel like there is a public groundswell of support for the language.

It's this type of public support which will be the key driver to the revival of the language and ANYTHING that companies/organisations do to help this is fantastic. My kids are using these signs daily. They prefer to read the Irish versions. It's fantastic.

On a great piece of news, the North Monastery, in Cork, is in the process of converting their primary school into a Gaelscoil. That would mean that You have Gaelscoil Pheig Sayers and The North Mon as Gaelscoil options on the northside of the city.

So a big sú craobh to the sentiment in the OP

Wibbs · 14-10-2021 9:18am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016943#Comment_118016943

Ah yes "informed opinion" on the interwebs. I put it in the same category as men on the interwebs claiming to have ten inch mickeys; to be taken with a pinch of salt requiring proof. So English is a pidgin/creole language. If you argue for that you could argue say the same for Spanish and French. Hell, French wasn't even standardised until what, the 18th century? The language itself was of course Latin to start out with, influenced by both the existing Celtic language and a later much larger sideorder of old German and was a messy collection of related dialects that were mostly mutually intelligible. Spanish followed a similarly complex route. The basics of English are more set in stone and earlier than French, Spanish would be about the same as English. Do you consider them creoles? Oh and the shift in from Saxon to English was already in play before the Normans showed up, because of their earlier brothers the Vikings. Irish because of her literal insularity didn't change as much as English or French, or German etc, though it did change and evolve as languages do. However my original point around the claim that it's the oldest spoken language in Europe still stands. It isn't.

Wibbs · 14-10-2021 9:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017108#Comment_118017108

Well in their early days they were out and proud major god botherers(except for Adam Clayton). That got toned down over the years. Only commercial to a point I suppose.

Wibbs · 14-10-2021 9:23am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017143#Comment_118017143

So we keep an artificial construct, the education in Irish system going, for the sake of another artificial construct, the requirement for it in the civil service? That sounds familiar...

14-10-2021 9:42am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017291#Comment_118017291

I'd love that in my local especially if people with very little/no Irish were made feel welcome, to allow them to learn. From simple things like them learning to order in Irish to understanding the prices/change etc.

Jump_In_Jack · 14-10-2021 11:12am

I wonder if there could be a push to get supermarkets to staff the checkouts with Irish speaking staff, for example, my local supermarket has about 10 checkouts, very busy at rush hour, and if there were maybe 2 checkouts with an Irish signpost to say to customers who wish to converse in Irish as they go through the checkouts, they could line up for those checkouts.

It's just an idea, it might bring out a bit of pride and curiosity in some people like myself that would long for an outlet that is currently not available.

I would feel very awkward at the moment if I even said Dia dhuit to the checkout person, for fear they would look at me with confusion.

For me, I would jump at the chance to use my cúpla focal in a weekly interaction, I'm by no means a gaelgeoir, but a simple interaction of a few phrases would be a delight.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-10-2021 11:25am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018380#Comment_118018380

Easy answer to that one - have a word with your local supermarket manager and see what they say!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-10-2021 11:33am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017043#Comment_118017043

5000 hours is about one hour a day for 14 years, so quantity isn't the problem - by that yardstick we should all be fluent.

Evade · 14-10-2021 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018500#Comment_118018500

1*52*14=728. An hour a day is ~5,000 hours but you only attend school for about 180 days a year so the total hours is closer to 2,500.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-10-2021 11:54am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018611#Comment_118018611

Your calculation is based on one hour a week, not one hour a day.

Students in the later half of those fourteen years world be putting a lot more than one hour a day if you combine school, homework and study.

But even if 2500 was accurate, I'd be expecting a lot more ability. Fluency is a bit of an excessive demand

Evade · 14-10-2021 12:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018634#Comment_118018634

To get to 5,000 hours you'd have to do a little over an hour per day extra, every day, including school holidays and weekends once you get to secondary school

But yeah 2,500 hours should yield a better ability than it does. This might just have been my experience but most of my leaving cert classmates had a better grasp of French than Irish by the time we got to the exams.

Furze99 · 14-10-2021 12:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017752#Comment_118017752

It's a self reinforcing three card trick played on the public. All due to the national self delusion enshrined in the 1937 constitution that Irish is the primary language of the state. As opposed to it's real place in society. That constitutional provision is what has driven and continues to drive jobs for the buachaillí and cailliní. Nice work if you can get and a tit to feed off.

Jim2007 · 14-10-2021 12:16pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018725#Comment_118018725

If people want it to change it would have been.... I have no time for these kind of nonsense excuses.

14-10-2021 12:26pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018634#Comment_118018634

I was conversationally "Fluent" by 12. Primary school teacher spent 2 hours on Irish each day. That 2 hours was in Irish only so even our morning break was expected to have us talking to each other in Irish.

The moment I hit 2nd level by aptitude for Irish declined. Reading poetry and horrid books is not conversational learning.

I was barely able to have a conversation come leaving cert oral exams, last public conversation was aged 20 when I met my teacher, while I was working in Dunnes during college. 20 years later and I can barely help my kids do their homework BUT it is amazing how easy it is to learn the phrases again.

It's not the time we are taught which is the issue, it's the subject matter and style. We should be aiming for conversational ability (spoken and written) not copying the style of English teaching and imposing that on kids. That style works with English (debatable...) because we are native English speakers.

Jim2007 · 14-10-2021 12:29pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018634#Comment_118018634

Actually after 2,500 hours you should be more that fluent! Getting to C2 level in a foreign language takes about 1000 hours and at that stage you are expected to be able to take university level course through the language. And the other 1,500 hours should definitely cover A1 - B2.

Part of the problem is the unwillingness of those driving the effort to recognise the reality - for most people Irish is a foreign language and unless it is presented as such in schools it will continue to fail. That plus the practice of presenting abysmal failures as successes - after 100 years promoting the language, counting schools teaching through Irish in handfuls in the cities is a failure, not a success.

14-10-2021 12:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018380#Comment_118018380

I wouldn't be asking anyone on close to minimum wage to have the capacity to engage with customers in two languages, to be honest. Some stores do a good job of bilingual aisle signage around their stores, and fair play to them for that.

I'd just go ahead and use a phrase or two. I find that the best ones to work with are "go raibh maith agat" and "slán", because they are kind, they get the sounds into the air, and they don't put any pressure on the hearer to respond in kind.

dubhthach · 14-10-2021 12:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018500#Comment_118018500

A average Irish student will in total get about ~1,400 hours of language contact over the course of their primary and secondary school education. Going off the proficiency levels used to determine French language ability in Ontario this would mean that varst majority of Irish student only come in at the 'Basic' level of proficiency

A ‘basic’ level indicates that a learner has

acquired “a fundamental knowledge of the language, the ability to participate in simple

conversations, the ability to read simple texts and the ability to resume the study of

French in later life”. A learner who has reached the ‘middle’ level should be able “to

read newspapers and books of personal interest with help from a dictionary, to

understand radio and television, to participate adequately in conversation and to

function reasonably well in a French-speaking community after a few months’

residence”. The ‘top’ level, should enable the learner to “continue his or her education

using French as the language of instruction at the college or university level, to accept

employment using French as the working language, and to participate easily in

conversation”.

In comparison a student who attends both Gaelscoil and Gaelchólaiste will receive over 10k hours of language contact which is double what Ontario Ministry of Education regards as necessary to function at the 'Top level' of language proficiency.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-10-2021 12:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018912#Comment_118018912

1400? That's about 35 mins on every school school day - including homework and study - and zero on the non-school days.

Primary school kids are doing that as a minimum and leaving cert teenagers are doing a LOT more than 35.mins a day.

Upforthematch · 14-10-2021 1:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017752#Comment_118017752

Nothing artificial in providing the services people are entitled to by right?

How else were you going to deliver the supports you wanted to help Irish speakers with on translation, community and media? Your cutbacks would cost money and you wouldn't spend a cent more I bet.

Your approach sounds no better than the "Sorry there, the Irish speaker is on leave, call back in a few weeks". bottom of the queue attitude to Irish speakers that's at last starting to turn.

Wibbs · 14-10-2021 1:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018765#Comment_118018765

I'd say it's more down to a majority of Irish people not really caring enough, or at all, beyond a mostly abstract "ah sure isn't it good we have it". Outside of people who actually speak the language on the regular and with any fluency, a minority, the rest, the majority only contact it in the background, or through schooling so by the time voting age comes around it's in their rear view mirror and doesn't affect them. The people have already spoken passively for a change as the clear decline in the use of the language since the formation of the state demonstrates. Even after decades of resources fired at it. If we'd actively wanted to preserve and grow the language that decline would have been a lot less precipitous.

Wibbs · 14-10-2021 1:53pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019232#Comment_118019232

Those same people "by right" are down to the last man and woman proficient in English. But let's take those people who strongly prefer to work through Irish and fair enough. That number runs around 80,000 people, 1-2% of Irish people IIRC. Surely we could provide better services if we took the resources aimed at trying to revive the language through education, which clearly hasn't worked and aimed those resources at them? It's more than a bit Gombeenish that we apparently require 20% of public servants to deal with 2% of people, who as I said are perfeclty proficient in English. Never mind the bilingual missives from government and the public services where the vast majority of Irish people flip to the bit printed in English.

whisky_galore · 14-10-2021 2:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017845#Comment_118017845

Ah Jaysis I go to the pub to relax not take up an evening class!

dubhthach · 14-10-2021 2:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018957#Comment_118018957

The definition of 'language contact' in this context is one-to-one/one-to-many contact between individuals speaking the language. As the emphasis is on building spoken ability and not on rote learning so as to pass a written exam. (essays learnt off by heart etc.). The Ontario Ministry of Education proficiency levels are likewise built around spoken ability.

Department of Education mandated 3.5 hours a week in primary school works out at 42 minutes a day. Homework and study is self-driven and doesn't entail actual language contact with other individuals. Why would children in Bearloirí schools be getting any Irish contact hours during non-school hours unless they were enrolled in extra-curricular event conduct through Irish. Also I'm pretty sure they have next to no language contact during the school holidays.

When I did Higher Irish for the Leaving Cert in 1999 I had most 40 minutes of language contact time in school a day. Study/homework while useful for reinforcing reading and writing skills does not build on spoken ability due to lack of face-to-face communication time with another individual.

For those interested the screenshots above come from:

Murtagh, L. (2003). Retention and attrition of Irish as a second language: a longitudinal study of general and communicative proficiency in Irish among second level school leavers and the influence of instructional background, language use and attitude/motivation variables. s.n.

PhD Dissertation at the University of Gronigen, Netherlands:

https://www.semanticscholar.org/paper/Retention-and-attrition-of-Irish-as-a-second-a-of-Murtagh/e1a30a8ba4dd720750afbf1365dd340c7d234a35

https://pure.rug.nl/ws/portalfiles/portal/2999446/thesis.pdf

The paper has at least 41 citations in the wider literature:

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 14-10-2021 2:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019457#Comment_118019457

Very easy to move the goalposts, but I accept your point. Are we taking one-on-one or a class setting?

But getting back to theoriginal point: no one is expecting mass fluency, so, what should we be expecting from 1400 hours of contact and about 1000-2000 hours of personal study?

Furze99 · 14-10-2021 2:47pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018765#Comment_118018765

Nonsense back to you. People could only change it, if they were given an opportunity. I don't know about you but I've lived my entire life in this country and voted in all referendums etc. Now I can't recall there ever being a referendum to address/ confirm/ negate the constitutional position of the Irish language. Can you recall one? Please advise how the people could have changed it, other than mostly ignoring it.

I think a referendum on the matter would be a great idea. It would get citizens really thinking about the language. And we'd find out one way or the other, just what relative value the majority of citizens place on it. Bring it on!

Jump_In_Jack · 14-10-2021 2:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118018875#Comment_118018875

You see, it wouldn't be an imposition on anybody, minimum wage or not.

Simply, if you have a staff of 20 checkout staff, and if any of them would be confident of speaking Irish, doesn't have to be fluent, even just to say the basics, if someone said anything complicated they could just be ready to say they're not fluent just able to converse in basic Irish, nobody is going to criticise someone for that.

I'm thinking more along the lines of a simple sign over the checkout saying "Feel free to speak Irish to me :)" / "Labhair Gaeilge liom má sé do thoil é. :)"

If nobody in the staff would be willing or able then fair enough. I just see a lot of young people on checkouts and chances are there are young enthusiasts of Irish maybe even in their Leaving Cert year etc that would get a kick out of an interaction as gaeilge.

The key here is not to be pushy, but to be a customer service, realistically it may only be greetings, a comment on the weather etc, and a good bye and thanks.

Set phrases such as here's your receipt, or you can use your card, or do you have a club card etc would be easy to learn off for a checkout person that was enthusiastic about it.

Again, it's only an idea, it might even be a selling point and draw customers from competitors perhaps, who knows until it's tried out.

Maybe something they could try during seachtain na gaeilge, or around St Patrick's Day to start with and see does it generate any interest.

14-10-2021 2:57pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019444#Comment_118019444

There are plenty of initiatives like that in pubs across the country. Generally it's one corner of a bar and you don't need to engage if you don't want to

14-10-2021 3:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019666#Comment_118019666

One and one Vs class setting would still be primary contact, where you can interact with the spoken language and have your errors corrected. By speaking it with others you are training your brain to speak in an adaptive manner.

Learning rote words from the homework copy is not learning a language. It's learning a specific pattern to pass an exam

Fishdoodle · 14-10-2021 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019911#Comment_118019911

That’s a pretty good idea. I don’t see how wage status would be a factor. Many supermarket staff have a name badge -could be just a matter of having a little green on the badge to indicate speaking competence in Irish. It makes an impression on people to hear the language spoken, and brings more life into it than simply having signs in Irish.

Wibbs · 14-10-2021 3:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118019852#Comment_118019852

A referendum on the language would almost certainly pass in favour of it. At least leaving the current status quo alone. Like I was saying it lives in a halfway house as a thing in the Irish psyche. A majority don't and can't speak it and it seems don't want to, but the same majority wouldn't like to be the ones that snuffed it out. Even the 40% in the census that claim it as a language they use, many are little better than a cupla focal along with English, a slan here, a go raibh maith agat there. It's a passively valued at a remove cultural artefact. Kinda like the example of the Book of Kells. The vast majority would be horrified if it were to be sold out of the country, or locked away never to be seen again, but very few will have seen it in the flesh and even then once in a lifetime. Now if the same referendum concerned going full education in Irish, or any real push to revive it beyond the status quo, IE something that would actually impact people, then the vote could well go the other way.

The creeping prominence of the Irish language

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