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Lottery Winners - Entitlement to Privacy?

  • 14-10-2021 9:11am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,366 ✭✭✭✭


    With the euromillions running at €220m I'm curious as to whether an ordinary individual retains a right to privacy should they win it? It seems that most of the big winners in the past have been "exposed" by the papers and I'm wondering if there's any legal protection against being outed in the press should someone in Ireland end up winning it?

    I realise it's not going to affect me personally but I've always said one of the first things I'd do on winning it would be to engage a solicitor from one of the big firms who I've had no interaction with or connection to and instruct them to write to the legal departments of the various Irish and UK newspapers informing them that their client wishes to remain anonymous with the subtle hint that he/she has sufficient means to ensure that should their newspaper breach that anonymity, it will not go unchallenged (or whatever couched legal terms one can use to threaten them - basically "220m is enough to tie you up in court for years and / or have PIs following your editors / journalists 24/7 until your competitor can get the exclusive on one of them leaving a known brothel or checking into a hotel with someone else's spouse etc.").

    Anyway: does a person have a legal right to privacy in Ireland or would the fact they've just won millions make them a "legitimate person of interest" or whatever the legal term is to allow the press to reveal their identity? And if it's the latter, would a pre-emptive solicitors letter to the editors help or hinder maintaining their anonymity?



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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,997 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    If the newspapers become aware of the fact that you have won €220 million, I cannot see any basis on which you could prevent them from reporting the fact. And of course the solicitor's letter that you propose sending would have to name you, and so would make sure that they all are aware of your good fortune. So don't do that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,541 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    The best thing to do is not buy lottery tickets. That way you can avoid the possibility of being exposed as a winner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Winners can choose to remain anonymous as far as the Euro Millions organisation is concerned however that doesn't stop rumor innuendo from occurring or tabloids chasinga story that has to be denied.

    I know someone personally who won a few million on Irish Lotto , they remained anonymous but had the miss fortune of purchasing the Ticket in a small village were they had family ( my friend lives in Dublin) within hours the entire village and probably county knew who won and whilst not easily proven it is believed the shop owner spread the news, not helped the following day when the national lottery released the location and shop ticket was purchased in. To this day (10 years later) my friend is asked did he win, his answer is, mind your business.

    I've always wondered how is it possible to have a right to remain anonymous and yet the national lottery releases the names of the premises were wining tickets purchased.

    A person might have some hope of privacy purchasing online or in a large town or city but zero chance in a village or small town. Seems contradictory and counter intuitive if a winner chooses anonymity, their legal right , with national lottery who then goes on to announce we're ticket was purchased.

    There are lotteries around the world that winners have to confirm a win and partake in unseemly & vulgar promotional campaigns.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,366 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    If there's no legal basis on which one could prevent a paper from naming you, would there be a legal basis on which one could seek redress for the damage inflicted by that publication?

    I guess I just can't see any justification for the publication of an individual's private financial affairs if that person isn't already a public figure (e.g. a bankrupt, a convicted criminal, a seeker or holder of public office (or similar individual of already low public standing :p). Whatever the legal situation, it is a gross invasion of the individuals privacy to name them as beneficiaries of a windfall that they've chosen not to go public about and it's not hard to imagine the damage such publication could do to the individual's reputation, social standing, mental health etc. Surely there'd be some means of seeking redress for such damage done (presumably you'd donate any damages won to charity of course).

    Is it just a case that such publication isn't considered illegal because no previous case law exists where damages have been awarded against a publisher?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,608 ✭✭✭✭Tell me how


    By all means enagage a solicitor from whatever firm you wish.

    But definitely don't get them to write to the press. Get them to collect the winnings on your behalf and to deposit in to your account or with whatever firm you wish to handle it. Let them act directly with the National Lottery in your place.

    Stay sitting at home in Connemara, or Bandon or Finglas or wherever and lie your life as you wish.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,366 ✭✭✭✭Sleepy


    Oh, I get that such a move is probably the right strategy, I think I'm just fascinated by the idea that it's perfectly legal for a newspaper to not only ruin someone's good fortune but potentially their life.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Social media will probably “release” that information these days quicker than the newspapers. Funny I haven’t seen the press “go after” lotto winners who remain anonymous- at least not for piddley amounts like 5 million 😂

    For the mega prize money like 100 mill + I don’t think there’s any realistic way you can keep it quiet - and while Irish newspapers might respect the wishes of someone to remain anonymous. If it’s a Euro millions other newspapers may not be so inclined.

    As to the legal status of your anonymity, others here might be better placed to comment but I’d say once the cat is out of the social media bag, it would be very hard for you to do anything other than own up as the winner- a legal case won’t really do you much good at that point.

    I’d be happier with the piddley 5 million prize myself- sorted for life but absolutely no pressure to go public and the newspapers wouldn’t be wasting their time looking for you either.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,435 ✭✭✭Scoundrel


    I believe the whole debate about anonymity comes from a case in Australia where the child of a lotto winner was abducted for ransom and subsequently killed.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    How would a shop owner possibly be able to figure out which of the customers they'd sold a lotto ticket to was the winner?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    CCTV for a start, also lottery verify the time of sale, ticket number etc, a very small shop with regular customers knows their customers.

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭micosoft


    No such rights exist. In Norway every persons salary is published https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-40669239

    If they were genuine rights you would not be stripping people of them whether a criminal or a bankrupt of a public office holder.

    You've invented "damages" there. I'm not sure how stating the fact someone won the lottery is libellous? It's a statement of fact. Mental health is really stretching it.

    But you have stumbled across the "burden" of wealth and fame. Like everything in life it's a tradeoff.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    Surely Lotto just look at the data records from their machine? There's no reason for them to tell the shop what time the ticket was bought.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭micosoft


    The smart thing would be to get a Belfast solicitor, deposit in a non-Irish bank (they leak like sieves) and confess in several months winning a 2m lottery to friends and family. You can't hide a lifestyle change like that...



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Would it be defamation if the press named the wrong person as the winner?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Agents Ticket sales also verified time stamped and submitted electronically, but that aside , I happen to live in very rural Ireland and can tell you the local shop keeper not only knows everyone, but could probably confirm the color of jocks and knickers local customers wear.

    Without giving too much away, I know for a fact, CCTV was viewed to work out my friend won, even that was also the talk of the town where he won.

    Edit, I never said Lotto tell shop what time winning ticket sold

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,541 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Defamation means that right-thinking people would think less of a person as a result of the defamatory statement. How would right-thinking people think less of someone who won the lottery?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭micosoft


    Buy the tickets online so. Very easy to do and complete anonymity assured.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    But how would the shop owner work it out? They could have sold the winning ticket to one of their regulars and still be none the wiser.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    It's really not that difficult, not sure why you think it is, ticket was purchased in a small shop, very small town and very early on the day, CCTV etc etc .

    As I've explained, it would be perhaps more difficult in a larger shop, supermarket, large town etc, it wasn't, ticket purchased in a tight knot community and whilst trying not to give too much away, a relative of the winner worked in the shop and CCTV footage was viewed to try an work it out .

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Yes, precisely as I stated earlier, the only real way to be assured of anonymity

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    That makes no sense. CCTV only shows who bought a ticket, they'd have no way of figuring out which of the many customers was the winner.



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Process of elimination and a bit of guess work coupled with some inside knowledge hunches- I’ve no doubt many shopkeepers review their CCTV to see if they can guess the winner in small towns- you’ll know the regulars who play the same numbers vs the quick pickers- once the lotto release even that information you can compare your machine tally’s with the CCTV - I guess it’s something to do to while away the dark winter evenings- at the very least, they’ll know who didn’t win or if it was someone passing through.

    that’s why I always buy in shops that I don’t often frequent - I’m just an anonymous customer passing through.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,828 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Well if every "good cause" and its mother are asking you for money and you aren't providing any (because you haven't won) and you get a reputation as a mean and selfish lottery winner as a result then it would surely affect your standing in the community.


    "Sure isn't your man a right bollix. It was in the paper he won 220m Euro and the prick wouldn't even give 1000 to the local GAA to help them buy some underage jerseys and all his kids after going through the club"



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭Allinall




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    I think the only way you might get compensation is if you could prove a GDPR breach from your local bank where a staff member leaked your new account balance.

    Me personally id take all the anonymity the Lotto would give me and then go straight to a Lamborghini dealership to buy a bright green Huracan Performante, its not a fool proof plan ill admit 😄



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    Precisely and I actually do the same re purchase of Lotto tickets 😁

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Go on- admit it- you’re a shopkeeper who oogles the CCTV every Sunday evening looking for local lotto winners 😜😜😜



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,828 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump



    Two points:

    1) The scenario posed was the misidentification of a winner

    2) Regardless, a statement does not have to be false in order to be defamatory



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,051 ✭✭✭✭Dempo1


    I could easily be the actual friend 🤣

    But honestly I'm neither, oddly enough it was a year after the fact I knew about the win, I was abroad at the time, its over 10 years ago now. I'll admit though, my friend was generous and had a little something for one or two very close friends. He'd actually just took early retirement.

    He never bothered with how news of him winning got out in the town, he denies it to this day if ever asked when visiting the particular town, of course with a smirk on his face, a nicer person couldn't have won it 😉

    Is maith an scáthán súil charad.




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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,009 ✭✭✭Allinall


    An actionable defamatory statement has three ingredients:

    • it must be published,
    • it must refer to the complainant and
    • it must be false.

    From https://www.lawyer.ie/defamation/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,828 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Key word "actionable". You didn't include that earlier, neither did anyone else

    A statement can be defamatory whether it is true or not.

    That it is true can be used as a defence. However, whether the statement was defamatory or not does depend on subsequent defence and result of that defence.

    Basically, if someone defames you with a true statement, and they can prove it to be true, you would be wasting your time trying to sue them for damages. It doesn't change that the statement was defamatory. Just that you won't get any money.


    Conversely, despite your link, you can win your claim even if the defamatory statement is true. You would need to prove only that the statement was defamatory. You would not have to prove it was false. The onus would be on the other side to prove it were true in order to use that defence! It might be true but they might be unable to prove that.


    As this is the legal forum, I expect there are others who can confirm.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭boardlady


    Apart from rural locations simply knowing you and noticing sudden large spends, CCTV will easily identify you. I'm sure the lotto system - when identifying the shop the winning ticket was bought in, also identifies the date - and maybe the exact time. Thus a shop owner (or any member of staff) can look up the CCTV footage from the day? I know my local Spar - very rural - is prolific in identifying people (generally for good!) using their CCTV footage 😃



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    And also, the spending habits of someone who has family, a wide circle of friends and wins a few million will be much more modest than that of someone who wins 220mill - out of respect I won’t mention the 115 mill west of Ireland lotto Winner by name but she and her family have been in and out of the news ever since for various reasons- you’d be much better off winning just say even 10 mill - stay anonymous and the win would be forgotten by tomorrow’s fish and chips dinner. I’d hate to win 220 mill



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,541 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    That is a poor analysis. Truth is an absolute defence to defamation. If the statement is true a key ingredient of the tort is not made out. I can negligently do something to you but if you don't suffer loss, the tort of negligence is not complete and you wouldn't succeed in a suit.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The National Lottery seems to do its best to ensure privacy if it’s wanted. Mostly where privacy has been blown, it’s been by the winner themselves or their friends and family.

    You’re not going to keep something like that hidden for very long.



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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    But the Lotto have no reason to inform the shop of the date or time the ticket was bought. All the shop can do is look at several days worth of CCTV to try and spot anyone who bought a ticket and then try and guess who was the winner.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 273 ✭✭boardlady


    But they do inform the shop. And that then makes the headlines.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,301 ✭✭✭Snickers Man


    Like the wise man said: "Lotteries are simply a tax on stupidity!"



  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,773 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo



    The definition of defamation under the 2009 Act (“defamatory statement” means a statement that tends to injure a person’s reputation in the eyes of reasonable members of society, and “defamatory” shall be construed accordingly) has been in place for long enough now that this myth should not still be doing the rounds amongst lawyers. A defamatory statement does not need to be false for the tort to be complete. All that is required for the tort to be made out is that a defamatory statement is published. The other poster's analysis in that regard is spot on.

    X can publish a true but defamatory statement about Y and Y can succeed in their action against X if X cannot establish in evidence that the statement is true.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,541 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    Truth is an absolute defence. Clearly if the truth of the statement is not proven the tort is made out since it is presumed false. Simple proof of the making a defamatory statement of itself does not establish the tort.



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  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,773 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    There's no reference in the legislation describing the tort to the veracity of the statement to begin with. Repeatedly stating that truth is an absolute defence, while an accurate statement in itself, does not mean that a defamatory statement must be false for it to be defamation.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭wandererz


    Setup an account with Coutts in London.

    Have the Lottery transfer the funds there.

    Then announce an exciting "new job" in a foreign country which will require a move.

    Put the house up for rent or sale and get the hell out Ireland. Anywhere.

    Hire a PA (say €80K/year) and have them plan & manage your journey around the world including private jet hire, hotels, villas, cars, yachts etc.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 5,838 Mod ✭✭✭✭irish_goat


    There is not a hope the Lotto tell the shop at what exact time they sold the winning ticket.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,077 ✭✭✭Shelflife


    The lotto dont tell the shop the time or the day or the type of ticket sold if there is a winner.

    You get told that you have a winner and thats it.

    I cant imagine many shopkeepers having the time or the inclination in trawling through their cctv in order to try and identify the winner.

    If you did you could be fined under the gdpr regulations, probably lose your lotto licence and leave yourself open to a civil case if you made public what you found out.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,828 ✭✭✭✭Donald Trump


    Ironically, your own analysis of my post is very poor. You are free to think, as the poster appeared to think, that in order to prove defamation that you must prove the statement is false. That is wrong. You may look up the definition of a defamatory statement if you so wish. You won't see any dependence on falsehood or truth.

    Let's suppose I am aware of common rumours that Claw Hammer is addicted to cocaine. You are addicted to it, but you keep it out of the public eye. I publish the claim in my newspaper. Now I don't have any proof or anyone who will give evidence to the fact. I have good journalistic sources who have confirmed it to me "off the record".

    Is the statement defamatory? Can you sue me for damages? Will you need to prove that it is false in order for your case to prevail?

    Hint - The answers are yes, yes and no respectively.


    Edit, I see Hullabaloo backed up my previous post. Thanks



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,541 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    You are confusing an evidential issue with a substantial issue. If you bring a defamation case you have to plead that the offending statement was false. You have to lead evidence in accordance with your pleadings to succeed.

    You are trying to make the false differ from a a phrase which the defendant cannot show to be true. It is a bogus argument.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭paddy19


    Not a legal answer I know, but the obvious answer is to play lotto online.

    No shopkeeper, I assume no location released by the lottery.

    I like the earlier post about the new foreign job and hiring a PA to manage your world tour...

    That's my plan.... :)

    As for getting a lawyer to collect my winnings..... that's way too much faith in the legal profession for me....



  • Registered Users, Subscribers, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,347 ✭✭✭hometruths


    If you buy a physical ticket I know you can get a few different people to sign it and share the winnings tax free, but is that the case if you buy ticket online?



  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Good question- I know we’re all just dreamers here on this thread but there would be massive tax implications after if you collected the winnings of such a large jackpot yourself and THEN decided to share out some of the proceeds- I’ve thought about that in the past in terms of how I would call the ticket a “family syndicate” ticket with varying percentages going to various family members- I guess you could bring along a signed document stating the percentage share each family member is getting - however for a significant win, I do wonder if Revenue would then try and challenge the validity of that- doing it all upfront is probably the best way and have such a document dated and evidenced well in advance of any win



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,145 ✭✭✭paddy19


    As far as sharing winnings, it doesn't matter whether you buy a physical ticket or an online ticket.

    Signing the ticket is just one process to show multiple winners.

    For online winners you just let the lottery that there is syndicate, they will supply the required documents.

    Best bet is generate a syndicate agreement, the lottery have a standard one available for download.




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