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Female Hiring Targets

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,502 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    I think they should hire people based of their skills not based on their gender or any kind of quota. Women are not in a lesser situation in today's Ireland if they want to achieve. Woman's rights activists should rather focus on various Muslim countries where this is clearly not the case.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    People keep talking about quotas but no one seems to have actual examples of companies that actually use quotas. Are you aware of any such companies?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,502 ✭✭✭tinytobe


    Look at Scandinavia or Germany.

    Especially in Scandinavia it's mad.



  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭the-island-man


    You think companies are that dim to write something down in a policy that is clearly discriminatory? Just because there is no written proof it doesn't mean that it's not happening.


    Just look at the amount public inquiries, commissions of inquiry and tribunals of inquiries since the 90's in Ireland. https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/government_in_ireland/national_government/tribunals_and_investigations/

    There are well over a dozen of them. A lot of these involve members of the public service where there was wrong doing and nobody spoke up and that's in a sector where your job is very secure and you likely have support from a union. I think most people are aware how shamefully Maurice McCabe was treated or how badly survivors of abuse were treated by a supposedly Christian institution.


    Imagine how reluctant people in profit driven American multinational are to speak up given that they can be managed out of a job a lot easier. It's easy to have an idealistic view that everyone should know right from wrong and it's straight forward to prove wrongdoing but in reality when there's mouths to feed nobody wants to be the martyr.


    Also I've provided examples of companies previously but you've dismissed them as being American companies and they do not relate to Irish companies.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,483 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    Company I know of, in a very much male dominated industry, did have a 50:50 hiring policy for its graduate programme at least back in the early 2010's.

    Given that 90% of graduates in this field were men and was reflected in the applications, almost every woman that applied was hired.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,603 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    Will it stop at females ?

    Will there be hiring targets for ethnic minorities, people from the LGTB community ? People with disabilities ? Religious, non religious people? It’s really become a fûcking mine field thanks to the absolute tossers who advocate and implement this craic, hiring 4 people hire the most talented 4... fûck what they look like, where they are from, what sexuality or gender they are... the most suitable and talented people.. end of..



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    So no specific company policies that you're aware of then?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    So tell me how you implement a policy like this without writing it down? How many people involved in hiring need to buy in and agree with the unwritten policy to actually make it happen? Specifically, how many men need to implement the unwritten policy when hiring, knowing clearly that it discriminates against themselves when they are going for internal promotion?

    It's never been easier for whistle blowers to speak out whether publicly or anonymously or to the press or to industry groups.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    What was the company please? Such a measure, as you've described it, would be in breach of employment law in Ireland.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Will it start at females would be a better question.

    Can we take it that you'd prefer to condemn many people with disabilities to lives of welfare dependency rather than actually address some of the lowest levels of employment in Europe?

    https://www.rte.ie/news/ireland/2021/0921/1248202-employment-disability/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,603 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    No, seeing as I never said that.


    what I did say was the most suitable, appropriate candidate should be hired, regardless of their gender, or anything else.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Current recruitment practices are riddled with bias. People recruit people who look like them, sound like them, went to the same school or college as them.

    Smart employers like Microsoft have worked out you need to change how you do things and move away from the traditional processes to get great candidates.

    I'm amazed that 'everyone knows' about this quota-based recruitment that is apparently victimising the middle-aged white man, but no-one can point to a specific example of this happening in Ireland.



  • Posts: 3,505 [Deleted User]


    the most suitable, appropriate candidate should be hired, regardless of their gender, or anything else.

    But what if it's their gender that makes them seem the most suitable? Recruitment processes give us an indication of how a candidate might perform. It can't tell us definitively who is the most suitable. In many cases, there is more than one suitable individual, and things like gender start to give certain applicants an edge.

    If you were a male interviewer, and you have two candidates, same quals, same experience (on paper), both interviewed well, both seem a good fit for the team, and both get along well with the interview panel. One is a woman. The other is a man who played for the same secondary school rugby team as you. You know you'll always have rugby to talk about, and his life seems vaguely similar to your own. You relate to him. You also know that many of your client contacts are men who also went to rugby schools. The man will always have an edge.

    Would you see that as a pattern worth tampering with, or do you think the woman should have known better than to enter a male-dominated field?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,603 ✭✭✭✭Strumms


    I have examples...

    a team of 9 people of whom I was one... 8 males and 1 female...

    the girl was 100% the best performer, brilliant employee, nice person, was promoted and was replaced by another female despite there being two more suitable candidates, she lasted two years, the rest of us pulling her along... a ball-ache for us all, her replacement who had been overlooked and male applied again and turned into the best colleague we ever had..

    if you don’t hire the most suitable candidate based on talent, experience, personality and overall suitability you are screwing your existing employees and customers... talent decides not gender.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




  • Posts: 3,505 [Deleted User]


    Just to point out my own position, I don't support forcing a gender requirement on an individual hire. If the female applicant was clearly going to be sub-par, the interviewing panel shouldn't have put her in the role. It's as cruel to her as it is to the team. But I also think your example here has an element of confirmation bias to it.

    First female hire is good = grand stuff, no comment re quotas.

    Second female hire turns out to be a bad hire = gender quotas are bad, and serve to screw your employees and customers.

    I know you say there were two other candidates that were more suitable, but it's possible that the interviewing panel really did think she was suitable for the role, and it just turned out to be a bad hire. Happens all the time regardless of quotas.

    The horror story of quotas is the idea that completely incompetent staff will be hired for no reason other than their gender. If an interviewing panel does this, they're being completely negligent. I'd propose that initiatives to increase the likelihood of female hires should be implemented instead, and tracked with high-level (department to organisation-wide) targets that should be aimed for but which do not impose such a strict requirement that any particular role ends up with an absolute gender requirement.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Gender quotas are absolutely stupid.

    It doesn't matter most programmers are male. It doesn't matter most nurses are female.

    Let people choose the job they want. Let the best people get hired and promoted.

    Stop interfering by trying to force women to do jobs they don't want, and by discriminating against men so some meeker and less qualified women can get ahead.

    Yes, it's always the men being discriminated against, I never hear anyone forcing 50% of teachers to be male, or 50% of biologists to be male.

    Stop interfering in other people's careers and mind your own business.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    I recruited my own teams for years. Loved when I was able to hire females (in a historically male dominated field) but what sort of fool would I have been had I just employed them because of their gender?

    Gender equality in the workplace doesn't just mean in the hiring process. I spent lots of time speaking at schools/colleges to specifically target girls to take a look at a career that at one time - thank god so much less now - wasn't an obvious choice for them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭the-island-man


    Would you mind going into a bit more detail on the initiatives to increase the likelihood of female hires ?

    Are setting targets not pointless unless the company intend to game the system to get what they want?



  • Posts: 3,505 [Deleted User]


    Well I'm no expert, a company would be best off hiring a consultant or training up a working group to develop initiatives, but I'd guess the most important step would be to include it in the company's CSR objectives, or even include it in the company's values statement and objectives, that they intend to improve gender representation within the company, and then setting those aforementioned targets. That sets expectations.

    Follow on tasks from that could include reviewing job specs for bias, making sure there are women included in interview panels, developing internal policies that support women, promoting women's career development, setting up mentoring initiatives, networking groups, reviewing existing policies for bias (especially performance management policies), analysing company culture for improvements.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Can you provide a source for your 6-10% claim please? Are you referring to comparable roles here?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    Good job we don't have gender quotas in Ireland so.


    What are you so afraid of?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    My GF was finishing up a masters in a certain discipline and my brother, who works in same area for a well known Irish company that everyone here will know and probably used, was getting prompted and offered to recommend her for his job. In his words to me, they're desperate to hire women she'd definitely get the job. He wasn't part of interview panel or anything.

    She did the interview and was offered the job, didn't take it though as it involved a lot of commuting, funny enough he had to do 2 interviews for his job a few years previous.



  • Posts: 3,505 [Deleted User]



    So a woman with:

    • a Masters and
    • an inside recommendation from the person previously in the role
    • for an open role at a company that lacks women

    got through the interview process in one round when the last guy had two. What point is this supporting?

    Are you saying that instead of quotas, the panel of interviewers must have been aware/been made aware that their industry disproportionately favoured male hires, so they purposely took a pro-women attitude, and that this was a more effective way to get the right woman into the job instead of just putting 'any woman' into the job? I'd agree there.

    Or are you implying that your GF wasn't competent for the role and you think secret quotas got her hired unfairly?



  • Registered Users Posts: 497 ✭✭the-island-man


    Most of what you mentioned are good initiatives (once the supports are there for both sexes). I think ensuring a woman is on the interview panel is good so long as the woman is able to effectively interview the candidate, in some smaller companies you may not have a woman or a man involved in particular areas.


    but I don't think it's an unrealistic assumption that if the these targets were referenced in the company's CSR or Values that it would make it into performance goals for upper management. Then it's possible to have a scenario of some greedy director (male or female) putting downward pressure to meet their goal.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko



    Do you think it would be possible to keep the existence of specific performance goals secret, given that the people who are making recruitment decisions will be the same people who are going through internal recruitment processes for promotions?



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭Buddy Bubs


    I'm saying it was a done deal as soon as she applied



  • Posts: 3,505 [Deleted User]


    I think ensuring a woman is on the interview panel is good so long as the woman is able to effectively interview the candidate, in some smaller companies you may not have a woman or a man involved in particular areas.

    I'd agree that it's not always appropriate, but I do think that where a role/team is identified as having a gender imbalance, it's worth pulling in a woman from another area of the business, just to act as a presence on the panel. Some companies already have a policy that above a certain level of seniority, a HR representative must be on the panel, even if they're not actively asking questions or understand the technical parts of the role. I think a similar policy for female representation could be beneficial. It would have to be situation dependent though, and not detract from the ability to form a core technical panel.

    but I don't think it's an unrealistic assumption that if the these targets were referenced in the company's CSR or Values that it would make it into performance goals for upper management. Then it's possible to have a scenario of some greedy director (male or female) putting downward pressure to meet their goal.

    Yeah I'd agree, poor culture is always a risk though. I'd wonder if someone with the right expertise would have a solution for that.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,733 ✭✭✭OMM 0000


    Discrimination.

    Do I really need to spell this out to you?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,214 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko


    You do need to spell out where the "anyone forcing 50%" scenarios are happening in the real world.



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