Aggressive modding in regional forums

firemansam4 · 13-10-2021 11:00pm

The thing is that the thread in question is also a very informative thread for locals and anyone who may have genuine questions and worries about the mica issue. Nobody is saying people shouldn't be allowed to debate in the thread but IMO one or two posters where taking it too far.

Using terms like mcmansion and free money is doing nothing only winding people up in the thread.

And one poster then trying to claim significantly less people turned up at the protest soley based on his own working out with nothing else to back it up?

There are plenty of people who debated against the scheme that were not given a warning so I dont know where this idea comes from that nobody was allowed to say anything against the scheme in this thread.

There also is another perfectly good thread to debate the issues in outside the regional forum, why drag down this thread? where many people just come to find out information or who may have qenuine questions.

Penfailed · 13-10-2021 11:00pm

Ah here, in order to avoid monopolising this discussion I'll leave you to it. You got yourself banned.

MrMusician18 · 13-10-2021 11:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016927#Comment_118016927

In the unlikely event that Muffler would've actioned them, I didn't want to see you or others directly effected banned from the forum. A thread warning to reign it in would've been enough. But sure he was partaking in the trolling himself in 1951

listermint · 13-10-2021 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016995#Comment_118016995

No I was banned by poor moderation personalised and without base. Stopping someone from posting with 1 single warning is not part of the rules.

So no I don't accept I got myself anything. And.. ah here you responded to 5 posts in a row . That's monopolising..

Penfailed · 13-10-2021 11:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118017015#Comment_118017015

Except, I didn't.

Beasty · 13-10-2021 11:14pm

Some posts deleted. Final warning. This is discussion of a specific thread in the Donegal forum. Do not bring other matters into it. Keep it civil or do not post

MrMusician18 · 14-10-2021 12:41am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118015207#Comment_118015207

Hi @Beasty

As I said earlier, I was going to return to this post. Indeed thanks for taking the time to review the thread in question and opening this thread again for further comment. Really the bizarre thing about this conflict is that the two sides are not that far apart. Everyone agrees that state assistance is the right and necessary thing, where things fall apart is the teasing out of how much. My own opinion is that 100% is unrealistic and that a compromise position will be necessary. I'd love to be able to tease out what the the impacted might consider a reasonable compromise, but at the moment that doesn't seem to be possible. But to return to your post there are a few things in here worth exploring:

As one poster pointed out, a central tenet of boards moderation is that when a moderator is heavily invested in a topic, particularly a contentious one, they step aside. With the best will in the world, it is not possible to moderate a debate fairly when you have strong personal biases for one side. Muffler has admitted he is sympathetic for the 100% redress campaigners, and that admission alone should have been enough for him to voluntarily step aside. As we all know, and its why we are here - he has not done so. If modding resources are an issue, then perhaps the thread could be moved and merged with that in politics.

As for the mod being aggressive, I also have to disagree with your determination. Moderation has been one sided, as as I've pointed out, I myself have been subject to relentless abuse. I've been accused of trolling, having a vested interest among other things. Occasionally I've reported some of this to the moderator, but it was never actioned. Even the moderator himself has gotten in on the action with a snarky personal attack in my direction. These are not the actions of someone who is moderating fairly.

You also ask that why post in this forum. Well this is the original thread, and many of us have been contributing to it for some time. Only recently was another thread opened in politics, with previous threads locked or moved. I don't agree that regional forums should not be considered a level playing field - if that is the case then that seems to be a new policy. It is also a bizarre one as it will absolutely lead to echo chambers forming, void of dissent. In any case, I agree that yes its a sensitive local topic, but the ask is national and non natives should be allowed to make their point. I can concede on the sensitivity, but even that is subjective. One mans insensitivity is anothers robust debate.

On the charter, I think we've established that indeed was a recent change and ninja edit. I don't know about others, but I'm not in the habit of checking charters that seemingly haven't changed since 2007 too often. This kind of behavior calls into question the moderators ability to moderate the forum even more. He's admitted that he doesn't believe he needs to consult or inform the posters of changes. And what does make the natives restless mean anyway? I've been active in the forum for months, will I ever be a native or will I always be a blow in?

And lastly, I don't think any one of the posters complaining has gone into the forum pontificating on a solution. They've asked questions and tried to explore ideas compatible with what they believe to be realistic.

VillageIdiot71 · 14-10-2021 11:03am

Just a tuppence worth from me. I'm not sure if the issue is about an echo chamber, and more what people might expect to be the path of a discussion. If you were talking about this on a street in Donegal, you probably wouldn't expect a random taxpayer from elsewhere to turn up and offer a point of view. In fact, if you were a random taxpayer in Donegal you'd probably make your excuses and save your opinions for when you got back home. But this is the Interweb, so folk outside the county clearly will see the thread and may feel motivated to express a view.

Banning individual phrases - whether its McMansion (or, tbh, "Sleepy Joe" on another forum) - just seems wrong to me. Fine, if its things like known abusive terms for Travellers and suchlike. But there's a balance between being abusive and being challenging within a debate - McMansion (and, for that matter, Sleepy Joe) are challenging terms, rather than abusive.

The challenge being made might be right or wrong, but I can't say I welcome banning of such words. If using them undermines the argument being made, well then someone will find they fail to convince other. And that's just what a discussion should be - a process where views are exchanged, and either accepted or rejected.

15-10-2021 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118016874#Comment_118016874

Clan? Seriously? Why do you think that kind of accusation is remotely acceptable?

Frankly, I've read a lot of posts on the thread in question, and wished I could put a large "Don't be a dick!" warning up.

I am not, thankfully, affected by Mica, nor do I personally know any of those that are - and I found several posts highly objectionable.

There is a method of disagreeing with people respectfully. That method does not, imo, include using derogatory terms, insinuating that people didn't pay their taxes, used shoddy building practices, or intended to profit from their misfortune.

All of those arguments have been put forward on this thread, and moderated impartially, and very patiently, imo.

However, using the same accusations, demanding unreasonable facts and figures, that people simply don't have answers to because the cost will be different depending on whether houses are terraced houses,two bed, three bed, etc, and asking the same questions over and over again was, in my opinion, nothing more than deliberate trolling, and indeed abuse of, people who are already suffering more than enough.

I genuinely fail to understand why people feel they have a "right" to add to people's suffering.

Frankly, I'm astonished that the posters in question weren't threadbanned long ago.

Frankly, Muffler has displayed a great deal more patience than I would have.

Pussyhands · 15-10-2021 2:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118004175#Comment_118004175

How to kill a forum 101, ban discussions that have already been discussed before.

I got an infraction in the soccer forum once because I said a manager of my team wasn't good enough, backed up my points of why I thought so.

People responded to me and I responded to them in kind, using some of my previously used stats as they showed stats to say I was wrong.

Mod gave me an infraction for repeating the same point over and over. The thread was as dead as a dodo, which was no surprise.

despite having been thoroughly disproved and refuted

Ah sure if everything is black and white, why have a thread with opinions at all, have a locked thread with all the facts.

timmyntc · 15-10-2021 2:36pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023995#Comment_118023995

Nothing worthwhile will ever get discussed if the same tired arguments are trotted out weekly.

Yes the thread is active, but its active repeating the exact same exchanges as last week, and the week before, and before that etc. etc. Which is fine if theres something yet to be settled, but in this case most of the "cheap shot" arguments that keep getting brought up have been long since disproved before.

MrMusician18 · 15-10-2021 2:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023842#Comment_118023842

C'mon, it is not unreasonable to ask people what they would consider an acceptable solution, both generally and in their own circumstances. All that any of those in favour have said that they want solutions that will make their house essentially safe, saleable (via engineer sign off) and insurable - which is what? Repair? Rebuild? No one can put even a rough number on the compensation they are personally seeking. Others have failed to answer the question, but just repeatedly answer that it's already been answered - when it hasn't.

It is also a legitimate question to ask why the supplier hasn't been sued to date. Sure they don't have 3bn in assets to make everyone whole, but they have something: one or two million at least. It would at least repair a few homes and would signal a marker to industry that customers won't tolerate it. Yet they continue to trade. Asking these questions doesn't seek to blame the homeowners, but refusing (or stating it's been answered when it hasn't) makes them appear evasive. There was mention about products liability being 10 years, but no one seemed conclusive about it. All we could establish is that there was a letter written. Again, it was stated several times on thread that this question had been answered - but it hadn't.

On the politics thread I have explained at length to those pushing this angle that the homeowners took shortcuts or knowingly used faulty materials was wrong. While I can't say for sure what other posters have written on thread (and I don't care to check), I don't recall any of those banned doing so either.

And how can allowing someone to be called a troll, vested interest, politician be considered fair moderation. Its those that are getting attacked that get banned and those that do it get moderator protection. Don't be a dick, unless the moderator agrees with you - I didn't know that was in the charter.

Pussyhands · 15-10-2021 2:55pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024109#Comment_118024109

So why not just lock the thread then if there's nothing new? Let it fall down the pecking order

timmyntc · 15-10-2021 3:31pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024257#Comment_118024257

Because new things do come up - but the thread gets repeatedly dragged off-topic by people adamant that their tax money shouldnt be spent on mcmansions or this blank cheque redress scheme

Or how its all the victims' fault for cutting corners on the builds, etc

These type of "arguments" routinely come up on the thread, the whole thread gets dragged off-topic again, and the useful discussion gets sidelined.

bucketybuck · 15-10-2021 3:54pm

I find it absolutely astonishing that it is considered acceptable to unilaterally change a charter without informing anybody.

It speaks to the very question of what those charters actually are or what they mean.

Update a charter? Sure. But change it without telling anybody, without informing the people supposed to be bound by it? That is fundamentally broken and I am really surprised that more isn't being said about it.

listermint · 15-10-2021 4:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118023842#Comment_118023842

Just for full clarity here.

When you respond to me. Can you make it fully clear I have never made any of the statements in your post.

None not one. So don't try attribute any of your blanket statements to me. The poster you replied to. It's a tactic continually deployed on this very thread.

Gaspode · 16-10-2021 11:44am

As the Category mod for the regional forums, I utterly refute the suggestion that region mods are aggressive in their modding. The title of this thread is very misleading and unfair. It's clear that the op just has a beef with one particular mod and one specific thread.

For my sins I've had to read through this thread and the mica thread on the forum in question and I fully support the mod and their actions. I don't expect perfection from anyone in modding but I think their message was clear and consistent - come here to rile up the locals and you will be removed. It looks to me like some posters have shown up in the Donegal thread to post opinions which they know will only serve to rile up the locals. Most regional mods are locals to the forum area so will be cognizant of that behavior and crack down hard on it.

There are more general discussions of this issue going on in other fora so it's not like posters can't get their opinion an airing.

MrMusician18 · 16-10-2021 12:23pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027748#Comment_118027748

You fully support the mod? So it is acceptable then to ninja edit charters (he should be de-modedd for that alone), so allow 'regulars' to abuse newcomers, call them trolls, insinuate that they have an ulterior motive or have some sort of vested interest?? Surely you agree that all posters should be respectful? Respectful doesn't mean accepting that they are right btw.

And no, people have not just turned up with the aim of riling up posters. As I said it was the only place this could discussed on site for a long time with other threads locked. It's irrelevant anyway, this is meant to be a discussion forum. Why have a thread at all if you won't allow discussion on the most important issue, the size and nature of the aid package?

listermint · 16-10-2021 12:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118027748#Comment_118027748

As category mod I would have expected you to be more balanced but sure look we are all human

There is zero evidence that I have 'beef' with the mod infact I never displayed any such personal beef with that person. So I would like for you to back up your claim with evidence please. Otherwise can you retract your statement as baseless. Because it is.

muffler · 16-10-2021 4:13pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118024168#Comment_118024168

There is a huge number of people in Donegal who have homes affected by mica but to the best of my knowledge only about 3 of the regular posters in the Donegal forum fall into that category yet those couple of local posters have been hounded, interrogated, ridiculed and condemned in the Donegal mica thread. There has been incessant demands made by other posters, particularly those who are driving this thread, for answers to questions when an answer cannot be given because there isnt one or the answer would entail disclosing personal details. Apart from the couple of regulars who have homes with mica I know for a fact that there are other people reading that thread who are not members of Boards and whose houses are also affected by mica. I am not going to allow anyone to add to the pain and suffering of these poor souls.

The sense of entitlement to answers didnt end with the thread bans in question. In this very thread yesterday we seen the following ...

"All that any of those in favour have said that they want solutions that will make their house essentially safe, saleable (via engineer sign off) and insurable - which is what? Repair? Rebuild? No one can put even a rough number on the compensation they are personally seeking. Others have failed to answer the question, but just repeatedly answer that it's already been answered - when it hasn't"

"It is also a legitimate question to ask why the supplier hasn't been sued to date"

"Asking these questions doesn't seek to blame the homeowners, but refusing (or stating it's been answered when it hasn't) makes them appear evasive"

"Again, it was stated several times on thread that this question had been answered - but it hadn't."

For anyone wondering the quotes (above) are all contained in the one post. Multiply those demands for answers x 50 and that illustrates the constant and incessant demands being placed on people who cant provide answers.

In the mica thread I previously posted at least 3 warnings that it was not a place where people spoke on behalf of the mica action group and that the questions could be asked elsewhere. But did people listen? No but then they have the nerve to come here and make all these outlandish claims when they have only themselves to blame.

DrPhilG · 16-10-2021 5:15pm

*mike drop...

listermint · 16-10-2021 5:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028973#Comment_118028973

Yada yada yada.

You make up the rules on the fly. You change the charter on the fly. You banned me from posting without a warning you merely told me to take my next post to PM. That's an immediate ban.

There's no mic drop here. It's bad moderation. It's not even remotely balanced. But that's fine boards is gone to the dogs now. I would have been a reasonable fair protagonist of the place but nah. Relying on poor moderation just because there's no head count available isnt the answer and that's whats happened here.

I've no gripe with you as some other moderator tried to fabricate earlier in this thread and has since disappeared into the night. I've a gripe with the flaunting of any rules based system.

Good luck. Enjoy the forum it's yours now in its entirety. You can echo chamber off each other all you like. The path has been cleared to hound the next poster out who asks an opposing query you immediately take a dislike to. It's like the Facebook of boards.

Actually I'd even suggest shutting down the thread since the aim of the game is to protect people from having to hear dissenting citizens.... That will sort it once and for all surely ..

MrMusician18 · 16-10-2021 5:28pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118028973#Comment_118028973

What outlandish claims? That you allowed the 100%'ers to shout down and run dissent out of the thread? By allowing posters to call others trolls, vested interests? When you review the thread, those claims are fair because that is what you have allowed to happen.

The question of mica here really isn't the topic under consideration, but how you have handled moderation of the topic and the forum. The fact that you consider it ok to edit the charter and tell no one says everything.

16-10-2021 5:42pm

My apologies are offered in advance as I've read some but haven't read all the aspects of this particular issue.

However with regards to Muffler as a Mod. My God we are lucky to have him. I've observed and received the support and advice he offers to everyone without question. If he sometimes delivers advice from the hip, "as it is", and is not to everyone's taste, opinion or sensitivity, in my book that is possibly the best advice that we are ever going to get.

Whatever's going on here, please remember, he has for many years freely offered his time advice and support with no expectation of a return.

muffler · 16-10-2021 6:19pm

One other point I feel the need to address before I withdraw gracefully with head held high.

Whats with all the comments about ninja editing of the forum charter? MrMusician18 you were the first to beat the big drum stating that I ninja edited the charter after thread banning you and others. Thats a downright lie and you should apologise for that unfounded accusation.

MrMusician18 · 16-10-2021 6:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118029666#Comment_118029666

That's not what I said. I said you ninja edited the charter. I don't know exactly when since I'm not in the habit of checking threads that seemingly haven't been changed since 2007 too often.

It was changed at some point between the last time you banned me and subsequent PM discussion (and was overturned) some months ago and @Beasty post.

Might you also care to address the trolling post you made towards me on thread before you banned me? Before you depart.

DrPhilG · 16-10-2021 7:34pm

So Muffler was accused of aggressive and biased moderating, some folk threw a tantrum and started this thread.

Beasty clearly and plainly explained why Muffler was correct in his actions, same folk threw another tantrum and kept complaining.

Gaspode then comes along and confirms that Beasty was right, therefore Muffler was right, and the merry go round continues.

When are you lads going to wind your necks in and consider that maybe you were in the wrong?

Whats next? The European Court for Human Rights? The Supreme Court?

Also just wondering, why is it that you folk are so determined to make your points in the Donegal forum instead of keeping it to the politics thread?

listermint · 16-10-2021 7:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118029962#Comment_118029962

Beasty didn't confirm that but has alluded to as usual lack of other mods available to take up the slack for impartiality.

The other regional mod came and cast accusations with no basis at me and then left

Being a mod doesn't mean you are infallible. It's why we have feedback.

As for winding necks in . You have a really odd tone to your posts. Thanks for the input though. It was forums are for. It's in the name.

DrPhilG · 16-10-2021 7:53pm

So that's 3 Mods who are all biased, all covering for each other and all seemingly out to get you?

Paranoid much?

MrMusician18 · 16-10-2021 8:46pm

Muffler

"...You and others should ask the mica action group, Donegal County Council or Cassidy Brothers who may be in a better position to address your "genuine" concerns".

jj880

"Ah Mr Musician. You must be bored trying to sicken people by asking questions already answered in this thread. Your latest act is asking questions already answered in the post you are quoting and replying to. If I ever get a parrot Im naming him Mr Musician. It's played out. You are played out."

malinheader

I'm seriously starting to think mr musician is minister o Brian on boards, definitely quite a comparison how they both can't grasp the simple facts of the matter in hand .

Penfailed

"Trying to paint a picture of everyone living in McMansions (I didn't by the way), the scourge of one-off rural housing, empty nests, wants-not-needs isn't an alternative point of view. It's trolling. Especially in a thread started years ago, in the Donegal forum, for people to discuss the topic. Kindly keep your entitlement to the thread in the politics forum."

Iochlach

"I've been wondering, since he claims to be in the trade, whether there isn't a financial gains motive lurking behind those questions..."

malinheader

"Probably best not answering but on the other hand it's also a good thing mr musician is posting on here as it gives a good insight into some of the totally obnoxious people who were going to meet on this journey whose only agenda is to try and annoy and contradict people in a very bad position at the moment... "

"...Definitely sounds like a politician to me.

Perhaps one of our millionaire td,s who couldn't possibly connect with the suffering of ordinary people."

Just a selection of the abuse directed at me on thread, for the temerity of having an alternate view. The authenticity of my concerns, namecalling, troll, accusations of a financial motive, being called the minister, called obnoxious and that i'm an out of touch politician are just a taste of the unactioned abuses that have been thrown in my direction. Not a single moderator action taken against these posters. All notably have rounded on me in this thread too.

Then finally this little gem of a dig by muffler himself:

Muffler

Thanks for that little insight. The extent of your talents knows no boundaries.

Don't tell me that this moderator is not biased.

Aggressive modding in regional forums

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