Will (or indeed should) the UK ever rejoin the EU?

ujjjjjjjjj · 17-10-2021 8:27pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033413#Comment_118033413

Not solely the EU at fault both sides agreeing to the NIP when it was always a fudge was the error. It was from Day one a fudge to meet political needs everywhere.....and now we live with the mess.

17-10-2021 8:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118031668#Comment_118031668

I take your point about unsettling the 26, but I believe it is in the best interests in the long run to unite the country.

On the point of NI going with an Independent Scotland. That may work for the northern unionists with historical links to Scotland but nationalist don’t have that history. Nationalists identify much more with the 26 than Scotland.

fash · 17-10-2021 9:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033452#Comment_118033452

NI protocol is mostly working and insofar as it is not, it is mostly because the UK lacks the functional capacity to enforce it because it failed to prepare and refused longer grace periods.

Who cares what is acceptable to unionists? Nothing (in terms of brexit) that is acceptable to them (i.e. DUP/TUV at least - and some parts of the UUP at least) is acceptable to nationalists. And the only way they get to keep Northern Ireland as part of the UK long term is if there is a successful NI protocol. No protocol means a hard border which means a nationalist "must win at all costs" push for unity - a Catholic community which is now a majority as well as Ireland which must push for a United Ireland as a strategic necessity. Furthermore, it is only relevant if if the UK reneges on the treaty - and is put under crippling economic sanctions for reneging on its international commitments.

Furthermore (and to repeat) the people of NI voted to remain in the single market, the NI assembly approved the protocol and no other proposals have "cross community consent" - so why should anyone move away from the (working very well thank you very much) protocol in breach of UK's undertakings- at the behest of a supremacist unionist minority?

Where there is 1 BSE cow, there are more - and it is merely one example of the horrific British (non) standards in food and agriculture - standards which they will try to force on us. (And you should really look up the effects and prognosis of CJD before you dismiss BSE).

Parachutes · 17-10-2021 9:11pm

The E.U would fall over backwards to accommodate them if they wanted to rejoin.

ujjjjjjjjj · 17-10-2021 9:32pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033603#Comment_118033603

Just like the masses of BSE cows in Ireland after our one cow came down with it. Could it be a major outbreak yes, could it be one isolated case quite probably. Right now would happily eat British or Irish beef.

Well aware of CJD thanks.

Not aware of any forcing standards on us by the UK ? Or have I missed something where the UK gets to dictate our food standards now or perhaps they will be flooding Ireland with it in Loyalist gang trucks next spring....

And if you think the NIP is working, well okay, not the case but anyway. Our unionist friends have plenty of ability to turn the North back to the worst of times that is why I care about keeping them passive and quiet.

If we get through this next round of EU negs with the UK over the protocol without a collapse in talks perhaps it can be put on the back boiler for a while. In fairness to the EU they moved hugely on many British demands in the last round of talks so there is hope but it may never be enough but only time will tell.

Fudge it is and always will be and where we end up with it I really don't know.

GM228 · 17-10-2021 9:38pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030724#Comment_118030724

Sometime in the future - The sovereign state formerly known as the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland shall henceforth be known as the United Kingdom of (Roman) Britain and (somewhat) Northern Ireland.

Strazdas · 17-10-2021 10:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033627#Comment_118033627

Not with this current government of Europhobes, plus an EU-hating press dominating the media landscape. No club would admit a prospective member who had expressed hatred for the club and who had a secret wish to disrupt or destroy it.

techman1 · 18-10-2021 12:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033394#Comment_118033394

As time moves on as the reality of Britain outside of the EU settles down the extraordinary thing will be the reality that Britain actually did join in the first place, I think that was the aberration as it is so contrary to everything in British history. The reality is that it was a mistake for them to join in the first place.

I think alot of why they joined was probably linked to the Soviet Union occupying eastern Europe and that was seen as the biggest threat, a united and rich western Europe as a counter to the impoverished eastern European communist bloc.

Now things are different, Europe no longer has a single vision that everyone agrees on like then, eastern Europe now has a completely different set of beliefs and priorities to western Europe,

Strazdas · 18-10-2021 12:36am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034313#Comment_118034313

They joined for economic reasons. The UK was 'the sick man of Europe' in the late 60s and early 70s, riven by strikes and three day weeks, power cuts, fuel shortages and widespread poverty. The average person in the EEC6 had a better standard of living, better wages, better working conditions, more disposable income etc.

The liars and crooks of the Brexit movement have edited all this hardship out, claiming it never even happened and instead that Britain was "tricked" into joining the EEC by Edward Heath.

Tell me how · 18-10-2021 1:13am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118030805#Comment_118030805

The world needs more integration and shared approach than isolation and division.

That's a simple fact.

fash · 18-10-2021 6:57am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033853#Comment_118033853

Not really "secret".

fash · 18-10-2021 7:12am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033696#Comment_118033696

Let's see how things develop with the "high" British food standards that they refuse to lock in to EU standards then.

By flooding Ireland with substandard rubbish, the UK forces Ireland down to its level - are you aware of why the border checks were first set up by Ireland to protect against British attempts to economically undermine the then free state in order to make independence a failure?

As for the NIP - again despite UK government attempts to sabotage and to incite violence, NI had no fuel shortages, no food shortages, no food produce wastages. Instead it has inward investment and growth in exports. That's indeed a "success" - an in fact an outrageously good one - especially in comparison to the cluster**** to hit GB as they begin to implement even a part of the full checks required by Johnson's brexit.

Deeming success to mean "acceptable to fringe crazed hate-filled ideologues in the DUP, TUV & ERG" means that anything that does not involve the subjugation of Ireland and an actual war with Europe is not "success".

So yes, the NI protocol is indeed a success - and far more successful than the other options on the table (i.e. no deal & a hard border in Ireland ).

Seth Brundle · 18-10-2021 8:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033627#Comment_118033627

Would you like to try and explain why you believe this or is it simply a case of the EU needs the UK a lot more than the UK needs the EU?

Peregrinus · 18-10-2021 8:40am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034691#Comment_118034691

Pretty much by definition, a UK wanted to rejoin the EU would be a very different country, politically speaking, from actual UK today. Ask yourself how UK politics would have to change before a Rejoin campaign could flourish and achieve victory in the UK, and then ask yourself whether a UK which had changed in that way would be an attractive proposition to the EU? We are, at the very least, talking about a UK in which a new and very different generation of political leaders has come to the fore. (But of course that's something that will inevitably happen.)

I don't think the EU would fall over backwards to admit the UK in that scenario, but it would be favourably disposed in principle. The whole point of the EU is to deepen relationships and advance integration between European countries, and the UK is and will remain a significant European country.

But the EU would also be cautious, obviously; it would want to know that the UK's decision to rejoin represented a considered and settled consensus, not an opportunistic hijacking by political elites of a transient narrow majority in a badly-conducted referendum. And it would probably want to take a fairly gradual approach; how about the UK enters into an Association Agreement, joins the EEA, and - if it hasn't already, before it applies to rejoin - spends ten years or so demonstrating good global citizenship?

techman1 · 18-10-2021 11:52am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118034375#Comment_118034375

Yes I agree that is all true, the German economy of the 60s and 70s was a marvel , so much innovation , technology and drive. They didn't have the hang ups of the British trade unions or out dated work practices.

But that is hardly true today, Germany is no longer driving forward in technology, the high tech revolution is driven by the U.S. and Asia, Europe is way behind. It hasn't done much in 2 decades. The big surprise is that this is not seen as a problem in Brussels, it barely gets any traction at all that there is little innovation . Where are the European. Google , Apple or Alibaba's

Sam Russell · 18-10-2021 12:16pm

Well, the (West) German economy of the sixties and seventies did not have a huge defence bill. They did not have the huge cost of reunification until the nineties, and are still suffering from that. However, they have controlled inflation as a religion. GB£10,000 invested in DM in 1963 would be worth €50,000 today. In the 70s, the UK had an annual inflation rate above 20%.

The UK in the sixties were still suffering from the huge cost of WW II, plus the cost of the NHS (it might have been free at the point of delivery but it was expensive), and the loss of the Empire. It had foreign exchange controls where an individual could not take over £50 abroad. It also had the effect of the changing Gov politics as the main parties moved into and out of power - changing fundamental economic policies, while harvesting much from the magic money tree. In 1992, they plucked the last from that tree, as Sterling had to leave the ERM in disgrace - unable to keep Sterling within the required range.

When Britain did finally join the EEC in 1973, it was the sick man of Europe - a shadow of the world power it was a century before. It did OK in the EEC, until the SM allowed it unfettered access to the EU markets which it exploited using the City of London to become a world power in finance.

Now, where is it? Why would the EU want/allow it back?

18-10-2021 12:54pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118035675#Comment_118035675

it's funny how people like to talk about the sick man of europe, while advocating for Corbynesque policies at the same time. The EEC played a part in turning the UK around, but only a bit part compared to the tough love treatment it got from the Thatcher government.

Yes, the City did ok out of the EU, some could say very well. Big Bang approaches to the global finance industry also played a huge role. In the grand scheme of things, this makes little or no difference to 90% of the population. They couldn't care less if a few bankers can or can't afford to buy themselves a new Porsche, they care about jobs and what they have seen is a gradual shift of these out of the UK. Everything from from baby milk, to frozen ready meals to Land Rovers have slowly moved to cheaper, lower cost countries.

The pandemic highlighted this perfectly. The UK was at the very forefront of vaccine development and testing, yet had zero capability to manufacture vaccines itself. The UK is the worlds largest buyer of pharmaceuticals (in the guise of NHS Procurement) and yet could not actually mass produce something as simple as a vaccine. A Vaccine developed at the same place that developed the world's first vaccine.

What the UK needs to do, is to redress some of this inbalance. Stop companies using the UK's brains to develop IP, only to manufacture the output in the cheapest place possible.

When governments have addressed this and made the UK a place where products can be designed, developed, tested and then manufactured bringing jobs and prosperity across the spectrum, then the UK will be in a place where it can to start thinking about rejoining the EU. Provided the Germans haven't gotten fed up with it by then and left themselves.

Sam Russell · 18-10-2021 1:18pm

I like the idea that it is UK brains that develops all or even most IP in the UK. It is generally much wider net than solely the UK brains or solely UK funding that is responsible for the IP.

It was German brains that developed the leading Vaccine for Covid.

fash · 18-10-2021 1:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036010#Comment_118036010

Even Turkish-German...

ancapailldorcha · 18-10-2021 1:51pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036010#Comment_118036010

This is a big one. Have a look at any department at one of the UK's elite, world leading Universities and see how many Anglo-Saxon names are leading or conducting high level research. IME, damn few. One of the reasons that UK research is so strong is that they're attracting talent from both Europe and the rest of the world. People want the best chances for themselves and in some sectors, my own included, that's easily the UK if you can get a visa. I can't see this continuing in the same vein but if the government can manage migration going forward, the impact shouldn't be too bad.

Manufacturing is a different ball game. The idea of attracting it back from China is just fanciful. The infrastructure, the supply chains and the talent have all adapted to being Sinocentric and that won't change because Johnson has talked a big game about levelling up while gutting state investment in some of the poorer regions (Cornwall has lost 97% of the funding it was getting from the EU, for instance).

UK research and IP were in a much stronger position while the country was in the EU. Hopefully, we at least get close alignment in the years to come but I'm skeptical.

18-10-2021 2:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036010#Comment_118036010

depends how you define "Leading" I guess. The Oxford vaccine has vaccinated more people globally than any other vaccine, thanks to its low cost and easier storage. So youcould argue that is the leading vaccine.

If you define leading by making a Pharma giant billions, then I guess the one created by BioNtech would be the leader.

18-10-2021 2:24pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036210#Comment_118036210

So to be British you need an "Anglo-Saxon" name?

The people may come from all over the world but, like you and others on this forum, they come for a reason and I'm guessing that isn't the weather. That's pretty irrelevant though, this creation of knowledge needs to trickle down. I used Pharma as an example, that could be any number of things.

jm08 · 18-10-2021 2:34pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118033696#Comment_118033696

Forget BSE, that is well under control now. (Largely occurs naturally in older animals that never get into the food chain - that Irish cow with BSE was 15 years old). More of a problem is something like Foot and Mouth. To refresh your memory that came about by an intensive pig farmer in North of England feeding food slops off a plane from South America to his pigs. It spread quickly around UK, including North of Ireland from where sheep shipped to France via Rosslare brought it to France. England will always be a problem because of its intensive farming methods and its fairly relaxed attitude to enforcing standards (not enough vets employed). That is the main reason why you will find the EU very hot on veterinary checks and food standards.

ancapailldorcha · 18-10-2021 2:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036458#Comment_118036458

I didn't say that you did. I don't know where you're getting this from.

18-10-2021 3:11pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036655#Comment_118036655

It certainly came across that way.

But do you get my point? it's all well and good have centres of excellence and innovation, but other than the odd nobel prize and maybe a knighthood here and there, what does it mean to the average Joe? It's Dyson all over. Flying the flag for British ingenuity is one thing, but when it just leads to jobs in Malaysia then it isn't really that much to get excited about.

ancapailldorcha · 18-10-2021 3:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036799#Comment_118036799

Well, I'd have preferred a better metric but academics don't typically list their nationality. The anti-immigration brigade generally don't care if the people they're agitating against hold British passports so in that regard the difference is moot.

I don't know if the rest of your post is serious. Surely new technologies and medical innovations are good for obvious reasons, no? Nobody seems to have a problem with Dyson's manufacturing practices since he has the right political beliefs.

The point about manufacturing makes little sense to me. The Conservative party have done all they could to destroy the UK's manufacturing sector. Sure, there are some advanced manufacturers but it's a shell of what it was. I don't see why you're complaining about it now.

techman1 · 18-10-2021 3:15pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036325#Comment_118036325

But the fact is that the leading vaccines were developed by German and British companies, universities independent of any involvement from the EU. It was national governments and private companies that were at the vanguard and were working night and day to come up solutions. The EU was strangely absent except in the challenge with AZ which amounted to nothing anyways.

The same with the migration crisis in 2015, it was also left to national governments to sort that. It wasn't the EU that made the big decisions but Angela Merkel for better or worse

18-10-2021 3:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036811#Comment_118036811

yes. New technologies etc are good, that is without doubt in my opinion. But, if you invest heavily in R&D, which then is shipped elsewhere, all you are doing is making the gulf with the elites bigger (and by elites, I mean those that were able to attain the higher levels of education). You could tax those higher earners, but then all they will do is go elsewhere.

There needs to be a connection between those that invent and those that make, which seems to be missing at the moment. Take the announcement today about Ford Halewood. That's good news for the people that work there, but I would argue that proper levelling up would be that Ford get a big hand out to do all the design work on electric cars (or bits thereof), on the condition that manufacture of those parts is retained in the UK.

I don't think the UK can address this without some serious incentives to companies, most likely above and beyond those allowed within the EU (which, if you remember was one of the final sticking points in the Brexit agreement). When this has done and the UK has addressed it's imbalance, then it will be ready to rejoin the EU.

ancapailldorcha · 18-10-2021 3:59pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118036924#Comment_118036924

I think calling anyone with a higher education degree is a bit silly to be honest. I'm not really sure what your point is either. I don't get any benefit from Trident nuclear missiles but I'm not overly bothered about being rid of them either.

Supply chains are global. That's the way it is and a vote to disrupt trade didn't change that one iota. All it did was incentivise some companies to leave the UK.

Serious incentive to companies sounds like massive handouts of public money to corporations and friends of the Tory party to me.

18-10-2021 4:20pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118037043#Comment_118037043

I'm not saying everyone with a degree is an elite, just that the laws of nature dictate that some people will be able to attain a higher degree of learning than other. if not we'd all be brain surgeons and Pilots. Some people are elite, just as not everyone who can kick a ball can earn £50 grand a week playing in the premiership.

Globalisation has effectively allowed multinationals to cherry pick the best bits of each country, so they can develop IP in the country that excels in that, then get the stuff made in the cheapest place possible and filter the profits back to whoever owns the company in the US so they can buy themselves a new spaceship. It just creates and imbalance. Correcting that imbalance is effectively levelling up.

What's the alternative, tax the rich and give it to the poor?

I'll ignore the last sentence, that's just the sort of comment you see on twitter.

Will (or indeed should) the UK ever rejoin the EU?

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