Heads up Coilte leasees

Grizzly 45 · 11-09-2021 12:58pm #1

if you are going to follow this violation of the Data protection act, for whatever reason. I'd suggest getting a "Burner phone" or "burner number".

IE buy the cheapest phone or chip from Tescos,etc on a pay as you go basis, do not register it or otherwise connect it to you in any way, and just use it for any such demands of officialdom. You can then "burn it" at the end of the season.Or keep it for evidence of threats and intimidation against you. There is no reason to give out your personal phone number to the animal rights lunatics to be harassed and it isn't that hard a job to link a registered mobile number to an address.No reason to compromise your and your family safety because of some badly thought out pettiness by some beuracrat.

kunekunesika · 11-09-2021 4:09pm

Don't hunt coillte, but have always thought that this was a ridiculous system. My phone is always on silent?? Surely all calls should go to the coillte person in charge? Putting the time and dates on it, should be enough?

What is a member of the public going to ask the hunter?

As using your own personal mobile number, that's just bonkers at ever level.

JP22 · 11-09-2021 11:18pm

Regardless of the sport/activity involved, giving out your mobile number willy-nilly in these days is stupid crazy, posting it up for “anti’s” and all to see is just plain asking asking for trouble.

The better half always says, “are you not going to answer that”, unknown number says I, if it’s a family emergency they will ring three times one after the other or a couple of texts with 999, if its someone else they can leave a message, afterall thats what the message system is for, simple.

Good idea about a second cheapo burner number Grizz.

Chiparus · 30-09-2021 3:54pm

New HAMS system being introduced. Every Coillte hunter charged €72 per year🙄

garrettod · 30-09-2021 10:15pm

Huh?

Chiparus · 01-10-2021 7:17am

You will be required to pay a third party €72 per year for administration, every hunter , not just the lease holder. I recon they are going to tate 2-500k a year on administration fees.

http://deeralliance.ie/blog/hunting-area-management-system-hams/

garrettod · 01-10-2021 11:52am

Unfortunitely, I missed an online meeting that could be accessed yesterday, that was organised by Coillte, and the Irish Deer Commission.

"At the meeting Coillte will present the new Hunter Area Management System and discuss how HAMS will work and the improvements and efficiencies the system will introduce to the tendering and licensing process within Coillte.

We understand the following is to be introduced:

· A purpose built app between HAMS and Coillte is to be introduced.

· Each licence/ permit holder is to be levied an annual fee of €72 for the app.

· Licence/ permits holders will up-load insurance, tender documents, and other related paperwork through the app.

· Each licence/ permit holder will be required to login and register when entering and leaving their Coillte property, along declaring the number of deer culled."

Did anyone get to attend?

This seems like a hell of a lot of money, for what's in offer!

clivej · 01-10-2021 4:42pm

'Rip off Ireland' at its best. This is not needed for the average hunter/stalker and IMO is just another way to squeeze more money from an already hard up person.

Chiparus · 02-10-2021 7:15am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117962839#Comment_117962839

Yep I was there, about 49 others, basically everyone who hunts on Coillte land will have to pay €72 to download an app, and then a day or two prior to hunting , notify coiilte through the app of your intention.

Thats basically it for the hunter as far as I could see.

The lease holder will be able to tender through the app as well.

Invited guests such as foreign hunters will have to pay for it as well ( Like that will happen) and so will bird hunters.

The pigeon man · 02-10-2021 8:47am

That's the most expensive app I've heard of!

garrettod · 02-10-2021 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117964255#Comment_117964255

Agreed.

Assume a 5 year lease, and it's another €360 per person 😡

garrettod · 02-10-2021 10:46am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966221#Comment_117966221

Was there any pushback / opposition from the hunting community?

Grizzly 45 · 02-10-2021 10:55am

Remember that questionnaire that went out with your deer license applications in 2018?

From the response back apparently 80% of ye wanted something like this app...So now you have it,and will pay for it. A point to keep in mind for anyone suggesting deer tags would be a great idea....

garrettod · 02-10-2021 4:35pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966221#Comment_117966221

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117966764#Comment_117966764

I don't think anyone agreed to beeing fleeced though - did they?

This needs to be opposed by everyone with deer leases, it's a blatant rip off!

HAMS claim to be an international company (albeit only 4 years old) - I wonder how much the are charging each person in other counties?

garrettod · 02-10-2021 4:38pm

Coillte-HAMS-presentation-30th-Sept-2021.pdf

Here's a copy of the presentation that Coillte gave, for anyone else that missed it.

I'm sure it wouldn't be difficult to get the email addresses for the various Coillte staff members named, and start emailing them complaints about the proposed fees.

Grizzly 45 · 02-10-2021 8:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968106#Comment_117968106

Had a look at HAMS website. 6 euro per month. So 72 euro PA going to them, not to Coilte, so at least that's something. Seems to be global too in their price range for hunters. Cant find much on it at the moment on any German hunting websites?

I would be more concerned about Data protection and privacy issues on this from Coilte, as I didn't see any statement from them as to what, where and whom will have access to this gathered data by them.Seeing that they expect you to put your mobile number up on your shooting in the woods signs, I'd be more concerned about their sloppy privacy and data handling processes. The app isn't a half-bad idea IF the 72 euros price is for the term of the lease.

https://hams.online/en-US/for-land-managers There is the name and list for the guy in charge of IRL /UK distribution

keith s · 03-10-2021 9:42am

I had a look for the same Grizzly, didn't come across the €6, but some info on the use of data collection here:

https://hams.online/en/terms-and-cons

"HAMS IS GDPR COMPLIANT, AND WILL NOT SELL ANY OF YOUR DATA ONTO ANY 3RD PARTY."

This doesn't cover what way Coillte will do with the data they collect from the App.

Instead of having to put your own mobile number on a sign, would it not be better to put the rangers number, who should know who is on the land and he/she would have a contact number for in the event they need to be contacted.

garrettod · 03-10-2021 10:59am

That's a far better idea, Keith S.

garrettod · 03-10-2021 11:00am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117968966#Comment_117968966

Did someone not say that its €72 per year, for each named hunter, not one fee for the term of the lease - unless I'm mistaken?

Grizzly 45 · 03-10-2021 1:43pm

I had a look for the same Grizzly, didn't come across the €6, but some info on the use of data collection here:

Scroll down the page to the prices;

https://hams.online/en-US/for-hunters.

"HAMS IS GDPR COMPLIANT, AND WILL NOT SELL ANY OF YOUR DATA ONTO ANY 3RD PARTY."

This doesn't cover what way Coillte will do with the data they collect from the App.

My point exactly...So you would want to see a statement on GDPR and privacy from Coilte as what they will do with this info...

Beats me how they figure out this app will help in anti-poaching too...

Instead of having to put your own mobile number on a sign, would it not be better to put the rangers number, who should know who is on the land and he/she would have a contact number for in the event they need to be contacted

As Mr Spock would say..." That would be logical Captain " and follow up with, in this case," Unfortunately, logic does not seem to be applied or used in this case with these life forms in charge."🙄

Chiparus · 04-10-2021 5:37am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117970673#Comment_117970673

The requirement for the mobile phone number is "should" not "must".

€72 euro, is a lot for something that is of absolutely no benefit to us, and marginal benefit to the Coillte.

Grizzly 45 · 04-10-2021 10:45am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/117973014#Comment_117973014

But remember the way some folks react to official missives...It's from officialdom and authority so it MUST be done,find that a lot with the older generation. Every which way it is a dumb idea and should have the local rangers number, nothing else.

As for benefits, seems to be putting Big brother with you out in the field,and reducing Coiltes paperwork load.

garrettod · 04-10-2021 3:11pm

Agreed - looks a lot like we're being told to pay for Coillte's labour saving exercise.

garrettod · 11-10-2021 10:18pm

The Irish Deer Commission have a survey going, asking for feedback on HAMS.

Hopefully, they intend to share the findings with everyone.

Here's the email :

Further to our previous communications on the introduction of HAMS (Hunter Area Management System), there has been considerable concern among licensed hunters following the announcement by Coillte of the details around the new reporting and upload phone App for licensed hunting on their property, the provider is a private company – HAMS (Hunter Area Management System).

The App will have several functions including uploading proof of insurance, tender applications, cull returns, generating permits, and other related documents normally sent/ received by Coillte via email or hard copy. In addition, hunters will be required to check in and out when entering Coillte property and use the App to meet the existing 48 hours-notice requirement to the forest manager/ licence holder. The App will also allow permit holders book hunting on their property with the permission of the licence holder.

HAMS and Coillte believe the App will benefit deer poaching as the App allows the recording of suspicious activity but will not result in any additional follow up by Coillte. It is also believed the App will benefit deer management, but there is no detail on how the App will benefit or support deer management. The App will create significant administration savings and efficiency for Coillte.

All hunters licensed to hunt on Coillte property – both fur and feather, individuals or gun club members will be required to pay an annual App subscription charge of €72 to HAMS in addition to their current Coillte licence charge. While Coillte have not been forthcoming regarding the costs and income associated with the introduction and ongoing provision of HAMS, or why HAMS was chosen over other providers. Allowing for 1,400 deer hunting permit/ licence holders on Coillte property and on the basis 10% of game bird hunters shoot on Coillte property this will generate circa €1.5m each year for HAMS.

While Coillte have made it known to the Irish Deer Commission and a small number of stakeholders of their intention to introduce HAMS, Coillte did not consult with stakeholders on the introduction of an annual subscription charge, nor did they consult with stakeholders on the specific requirements or potential impacts for hunters with the introduction of such an App.

The Irish Deer Commission have requested an urgent meeting with Coillte to discuss this matter, in advance have your say on the introduction of HAMS by completing our online survey.

Link to survey:

https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/5Q7BBD6

Cass · 16-10-2021 11:52am

I understand the need for Coilte leases as not everyone has access to private lands, but feck me.

Pay to do a course, pay to lease the land, only certain days, only certain hours, private information in public view and not GPS tagged. All to control "pest" numbers for Coilte.

I'd sooner sell my guns.

Grizzly 45 · 16-10-2021 2:58pm

Worse, their mission creep starts to affect us, non Coilte hunters. 10 years ago HACAP was something that Coilte wanted for their own property, now its mandatory from next season for newbies all over...How long before some bright spark thinks this app is a "good idea" for all deer stalkers?

Cass · 16-10-2021 3:58pm

Not JUST the hcap. That is the funny side of this. They [hcap] pushed for this [mandatory coruses] and ended up opening it up, a basically cornered market, to anyone who wants to run a course.

We've said it time and again that be careful about what change you push for as it never turns out the way you'd think.

Grizzly 45 · 18-10-2021 9:12pm

Just seen on FB Irish Deer Commission announced that Coilte has paused the HAMS introduction.

Coillte have announced the pausing of the HAMS introduction deadline to allow for further discussion with stakeholders following feedback from stakeholders.

It shows if we make enough noise...

ace86 · 19-10-2021 12:01am

Hi lads have forestry’s rented from coillte for bird hunting and they are requiring us to txt the forestry manager before we go hunting on the grounds have no issue with that but want us to put up a sign saying x club shooting here I just have concerns more so for myself and my members that our vehicles could be vandalised broken into guns and ammo stolen or be followed to our homes and the same happen.

My biggest concern I’m More or less advertising to Johnny public I have firearms and should 1 be stolen or ammo and I go to get a new one the Gardai say there not giving me one bcos I erected a sign I was shooting which lead to the situation in the 1st place?

What are fellows thought and opinions on this process?

Grizzly 45 · 19-10-2021 11:32am

Well, for one don't put up any personal phone numbers on that sign. Buy the cheapest phone and pay as you go chip and use that number for the season and then dump it[AKA a Burner phone]. Up to you if you want to answer it or not. Just put it on message minder IIWY. Or put up the forestry managers number and let them have to deal with all the calls.

As for the sign, just put up shooting happening here.No details about which gun club or other. That's of course, once you point out to Coilte that this is utterly dangerous to your personal safety and property and contravenes the Garda guidelines about advertising that you are a gun owner/shooter, whom I think would surpass Coilte in who to follow first in regards firearms safety.

garrettod · 19-10-2021 3:41pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041343#Comment_118041343

Better yet,

Why not send a registered letter to Coillte, highlighting these various concerns, and asking them to indemnify you against any financial loss incurred as a result of them demands, along with asking them to provide a letter than you can pass to your local Super / FO, confirming that they are messing these demands of you, despite being aware of the enhanced level of risk that they are putting you at?

Oh, maybe also all for the phone number of local 24/7 Coillte staff that will come to your aid, if ever you run into a problem with some bunch of crazy animal rights activists, have your vehicle vandalised while on Coillte land and need a lift home etc. 😊

garrettod · 19-10-2021 3:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118039109#Comment_118039109

Yes, that also went out by email to all members, and it's a good thing.

However, where are the likes of the NARGC etc. ?

This is a prime example of something where all representative groups, and individual hunters, should be working togeather...

JP22 · 20-10-2021 8:26pm

Don’t shoot deer myself, retired from game shooting but need some info on the HAMS system.

Just been informed that this new system will also impact rough shooters (fur & feather).

Is this correct?

What happens where a game club has a three year Coillte Letting, is it €72 for each club member or is there a Hams fee to cover the whole club.

Any info available please.

Thanks. JP

Chiparus · 20-10-2021 9:56pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118050564#Comment_118050564

Yes , every hunter , even if they are foreigners on a days woodcock shooting in the west will have to pay.

sjmck83 · 27-10-2021 8:21am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118043215#Comment_118043215

I contacted both NARGC and Country Sports Ireland and both confirmed they had a meeting with Coillte last week about HAMS which involved representatives from approximately 12 stakeholders groups. Coillte have apparently paused the HAMS system and there is another meeting in the next couple of weeks to tease out the various issues.

JP22 · 29-10-2021 10:12pm

IFA Countryside was also involved with the meeting.

Cass · 30-10-2021 2:14pm

Will it be a temporary suspension, then re-instate regardless?

garrettod · 30-10-2021 7:06pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118094168#Comment_118094168

You certainly wouldn't put it past them 😣

Or they'll offer to reduce the price to €69pp for the first year or two, and pretend that they are great fellas.

They are making big savings on admin, so the app should be free, end of story.

I really hope that everyone stands firm on this, its long past time that the sports people started standing up for themselves.

bluezulu49 · 15-09-2022 12:37pm

Wondering if anyone has had the unfortunate experience of using the HAMS app which is now mandatory for shooters in Coillte woods. It's pretty clear from my first use that it was written by someone with no experience of user friendly software.

Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information

Heads up Coilte leasees

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