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Lost Ormond · 23-06-2021 5:41pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I do not care for the goal-line dropout at all but I also don't think its a particularly huge deal. I think the 50-22 is well worth trying out on a longer term basis. I'm just happy to see the ridiculous 20 min red card rule has been dropped.

Agree with that. Goal line drop out should see more ball in play time with less scrums which isnt a bad thing

Captain_Crash wrote: »

No fan of the drop out rule! Always loved the tension of driving over and being held up and the pressure the attacking team can have a defence under! I think it takes the sting out of that part of the game a bit

As for the 50-22?? as a former full back, this is one I love and wish I got to play with.

If it speeds the game up then im all for it.

Podge_irl · 23-06-2021 6:04pm

Does the goal-line drop out apply also for bringing the ball back behind your line and grounding it?

Losty Dublin · 23-06-2021 6:04pm

Shelflife wrote: »

50:22 will be very hard to police at amateur level. Grand in the pro game where you will have 2 decent ARs and a TMO keeping an eye out but on a cold wet Sunday afternoon on your own …..

Which herein lies a big problem with so so many of these law amendments; they rarely fail to take the junior and amateur game into consideration and more so in 2021 as there has been negligible levels of clubs games for such issues to arise and create situations and problems during games.

I foresee that refs will have to deal with aggrieved players in the new season as they find out that their games are struggling to catch up and adapt to changes that materially aren’t made with their interests at heart.

Podge_irl · 23-06-2021 6:10pm

How is a 50-22 any harder to police than a "normal" kick to the corner is now?

randomname2005 · 24-06-2021 3:18am

Podge_irl wrote: »

How is a 50-22 any harder to police than a "normal" kick to the corner is now?

I think depending on play the ref might not be in a position to accurately judge if the kicker was in their own half if close to the half way, or if the ball bounced inside or outside the 22 if it bounces close to the 22

Nermal · 24-06-2021 9:19am

Should all 22 drop-outs not be replaced by goal line drop-outs?

Might encourage some more creativity close to the line - if there's a chance the attacker will try a grubber into the in-goal, defenders must consider filling that space, which means more space out wide.

LuckyLloyd · 24-06-2021 10:21am

I feel like these changes will be very significant. Should lead to more attacking rugby and higher scoring.

Podge_irl · 24-06-2021 10:51am

randomname2005 wrote: »

I think depending on play the ref might not be in a position to accurately judge if the kicker was in their own half if close to the half way, or if the ball bounced inside or outside the 22 if it bounces close to the 22

Pretty sure it doesn't need to bounce inside the 22, just go into touch inside the 22 having bounced. ARs already have to decide where it goes into touch and whether it bounced first.

The ref should normally be near enough play where the player is kicking from and it is fundamentally no different from decided whether a player kicked from inside their own 22 or not (and that will often take place much further away from the ref).

sydthebeat · 24-06-2021 10:58am

ive often seen pitches where the 22s and half way lines are marked by no more than a flag 1.0m off the side line...typically in an age grade game on a 3rd pitch etc.... with side-lines 2 foot thick and very patch lime marks

gonna be fun for a ref trying to decide if the player was in or outside the 22 / halfway kicking and whether it bounced inside the opponents half / 22 before going over the side-line

sydthebeat · 24-06-2021 11:00am

Podge_irl wrote: »

Pretty sure it doesn't need to bounce inside the 22, just go into touch inside the 22 having bounced. ARs already have to decide where it goes into touch and whether it bounced first.

The ref should normally be near enough play where the player is kicking from and it is fundamentally no different from decided whether a player kicked from inside their own 22 or not (and that will often take place much further away from the ref).

correct it doesnt need to bounce inside the half / 22, just needs to bounce before it goes out..

however the point being made is it will be harder to judge IF its a close call on whether it bounced or not. whatever way your looking at it the ref will be typically about 25 meters away from whether the ball crosses the sideline

Podge_irl · 24-06-2021 1:08pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

correct it doesnt need to bounce inside the half / 22, just needs to bounce before it goes out..

however the point being made is it will be harder to judge IF its a close call on whether it bounced or not. whatever way your looking at it the ref will be typically about 25 meters away from whether the ball crosses the sideline

But whether it bounces or not before going out is significantly material already as it is the difference between a lineout in the 22 or back from where you kicked.

sydthebeat · 24-06-2021 1:16pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

But whether it bounces or not before going out is significantly material already as it is the difference between a lineout in the 22 or back from where you kicked.

yeah absolutely.. and as difficult it is to make that call if its close.. you now have the added split second observation to make if its past the 22 / half way either ... and like i said, that may be with the only method to recognise the 22 being a flag placed 1.0m offset away from the line

essentially it makes life for an age grade / junior level ref more difficult

but so be it.

blackwhite · 24-06-2021 2:09pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

correct it doesnt need to bounce inside the half / 22, just needs to bounce before it goes out..

however the point being made is it will be harder to judge IF its a close call on whether it bounced or not. whatever way your looking at it the ref will be typically about 25 meters away from whether the ball crosses the sideline

Is that any different from them having to judge whether the ball went out on the full or not anyway?

TJ will tell them if it made it into the half/22 when it crossed the line, so it's just the question of whether it's on the full or not, which was a judgement the refereees have always had to make anyway

Losty Dublin · 24-06-2021 2:24pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

ive often seen pitches where the 22s and half way lines are marked by no more than a flag 1.0m off the side line...typically in an age grade game on a 3rd pitch etc.... with side-lines 2 foot thick and very patch lime marks

gonna be fun for a ref trying to decide if the player was in or outside the 22 / halfway kicking and whether it bounced inside the opponents half / 22 before going over the side-line

I refer you to my point from yesterday. Precious few of these changes have the junior and underage games in mind; this is one such issue that's a practical one to most of us who play.

sydthebeat · 24-06-2021 2:28pm

blackwhite wrote: »

Is that any different from them having to judge whether the ball went out on the full or not anyway?

TJ will tell them if it made it into the half/22 when it crossed the line, so it's just the question of whether it's on the full or not, which was a judgement the refereees have always had to make anyway

im not saying its different, im saying its an extra additional difficulty for refs reffing age grade and lower leagues.

its patently and evidentially more difficult.. because its an extra.

so not only are you judging whether out on full or not, but your assessing if out on full, within or outside the appropriate line which may not exist on the ground.

fine if your game is open a 4G pitch with permalines... not the same if your reffing a U16s game on a wet Friday night on the cill dara 3rd pitch.... (apologies to cill dara for associating them with the common "stoke" reference)

Losty Dublin · 24-06-2021 2:29pm

Nermal wrote: »

Should all 22 drop-outs not be replaced by goal line drop-outs?

Might encourage some more creativity close to the line - if there's a chance the attacker will try a grubber into the in-goal, defenders must consider filling that space, which means more space out wide.

The problem here is that a defending team has tactical control of what they do with a 22, be it a long kick down field or a short tap or a garryowen or a kick wide to try to exploit space etc. A goal line dropout is little more than giving the ball back to the opposition to attack again, having failed an attack.

Podge_irl · 24-06-2021 3:51pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

its patently and evidentially more difficult.. because its an extra.
so not only are you judging whether out on full or not, but your assessing if out on full, within or outside the appropriate line which may not exist on the ground.

The only "extra" is deciding whether they were inside their half when they kicked and refs have to be conscious of where the ball is kicked from anyway - they will also tend to be close to play and every pitch should have a half way line.

Whether the ball bounced and where it went into touch are determinations that already have to be made.

sydthebeat · 24-06-2021 4:06pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

The only "extra" is deciding whether they were inside their half when they kicked and refs have to be conscious of where the ball is kicked from anyway - they will also tend to be close to play and every pitch should have a half way line.

Whether the ball bounced and where it went into touch are determinations that already have to be made.

dont forget about the 50 / 22.

a ref now needs to be conscious if an open play kick is made inside the players half and if it goes out of play within the opponents 22 after bouncing.

that didnt exist before and is an "extra".. as is determining if the ball went over the line outside or inside the opponents 22... again, for a lot of refs, a line wont be marked.

i dont get what you are arguing here.

You seem to be arguing there will be no difference in the difficulty for refs when there obviously is more difficulty in making those decisions, because there are more constituent parts of the decision.

Podge_irl · 24-06-2021 4:09pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

dont forget about the 50 / 22.

a ref now needs to be conscious if an open play kick is made inside the players half and if it goes out of play within the opponents 22 after bouncing.

that didnt exist before and is an "extra".. as is determining if the ball went over the line outside or inside the opponents 22... again, for a lot of refs, a line wont be marked.

i dont get what you are arguing here.

You seem to be arguing there will be no difference in the difficulty for refs when there obviously is more difficulty in making those decisions, because there are more constituent parts of the decision.

I'm arguing that the only extra in a 50/22 is deciding whether the kicking player is in their own half. Every single other necessary determination is already required for an open play kick. They, in combination with the ARs, already need to determine whether the ball bounces and where it goes into touch.
I will grant you that whether it is judged inside or outside the 22 now has larger consequence but the AR always had to pick the spot where the ball went into touch.

sydthebeat · 24-06-2021 4:21pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm arguing that the only extra in a 50/22 is deciding whether the kicking player is in their own half. Every single other necessary determination is already required for an open play kick. They, in combination with the ARs, already need to determine whether the ball bounces and where it goes into touch.

the ref doesn't have to currently make a decision on whether the ball bounced 10cm to the left or right of an often non existent point on the sideline as the outcome was the same no matter. Walk up an mark where you think the ball went over and throw in for the defence. No big decision to make, no level of difficulty, no controversy on the outcome. no need to consult with the "AR" (who is often the assistant coach for defending team and might not exactly be impartial)

now the ref, who is standing at an attacking ruck 5m into the defence half, has to decide "did that player have his standing foot past the halfway line when he kicked that ball, i better look across the line to see where the half way indicators are... but damn must follow the flight to see if it bounces.. so it does, now was that before it reached touch? it was, grand... but, damn, was that within the 22 or outside... must get this right as the attacking team a 5 down with 5 to play....

both of those are absolutely NOT the same situations for the referees.

Lost Ormond · 24-06-2021 4:25pm

Podge_irl wrote: »

I'm arguing that the only extra in a 50/22 is deciding whether the kicking player is in their own half. Every single other necessary determination is already required for an open play kick. They, in combination with the ARs, already need to determine whether the ball bounces and where it goes into touch.
I will grant you that whether it is judged inside or outside the 22 now has larger consequence but the AR always had to pick the spot where the ball went into touch.

Thats if you have Touch Judges. At amatuer level most games its a sub or whoever is unfortunate to be close to a teams subs/coach when the ref walks over with the touch judge flag and says 'so who is the touch judge?"....

sydthebeat · 24-06-2021 4:26pm

Lost Ormond wrote: »

Thats if you have Touch Judges. At amatuer level most games its a sub or whoever is unfortunate to be close to a teams subs/coach when the ref walks over with the touch judge flag and says 'so who is the touch judge?"....

im only an affiliate ref, but even at that id be very, very slow to be asking a touch judge to make a decision that i am ultimately responsible for.

Losty Dublin · 24-06-2021 4:57pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

im only an affiliate ref, but even at that id be very, very slow to be asking a touch judge to make a decision that i am ultimately responsible for.

Unless a touch judge has been appointed by the match organisers, they don't and shouldn't be asked to make any such calls. As it is, even their power to make a call of touch is purely at the convenience and discretion of the referee.

Relieved now?

blackwhite · 24-06-2021 4:58pm

sydthebeat wrote: »

the ref doesn't have to currently make a decision on whether the ball bounced 10cm to the left or right of an often non existent point on the sideline as the outcome was the same no matter. Walk up an mark where you think the ball went over and throw in for the defence. No big decision to make, no level of difficulty, no controversy on the outcome. no need to consult with the "AR" (who is often the assistant coach for defending team and might not exactly be impartial)

Where the ball bounces and where the ball crossed the line is no different a judgment to what they already have to make now under the existing rules.

Under the old rules, whether the line-out is inside the 22 or outside already makes a difference on what the defending team's options for clearing their lines are - so it's not like refs are just making their mark at any old spot regardless.

Lost Ormond · 13-08-2021 12:04pm

Domestic/club rugby back this weekend. wonder will we see many issues with some of these law trials,. should bw interesting if anything big comes up from the games now its not just pros playing the trials...

Jump_In_Jack · 19-10-2021 11:29am

Is Beirne offside from this screenshot? Genuinely, I can't find information about what constitutes offside from a kick, some sources state you must be in line or behind the kicker, and some sources state that it only applies to your feet (on condition you are not down on hands and knees).

In the screenshot below, Beirne retreated after the ball was kicked to this position as Scannell moved forwards after his kick, to me it seems both of Beirne's feet are in line with Scannell's feet at this instant (ball after travelling about 10 metres forward after the kick).

The question is, as Beirne is leaning forward, his upper body is in front of Scannell's, who is standing straight up or even slightly leaning back at this moment.

My guess is that this will be given as not offside most of the time if not all of the time. Is there anything in the laws that stipulates all body parts have to be in line or behind the kicker? Or is it whole body has to be behind the kicker, as in being in line is not enough.

sydthebeat · 19-10-2021 1:56pm

your better off posting the pic from the point at which the kick takes place, as scannell continues to move forward after the kick, as is represented in your pic.

the black line is obviously drawn by me, and ive tried to allow for perspective with it as well.

so the question is, is Beirne onside because his trailing foot is borderline at best, or is he offside as most of his body is.

we need to look at the definitions to determine what beyond the kick means

Beyond or behind or in front of a position: Means with both feet, except where the context makes that inappropriate.

so if we take "both feet" to be the determination line, then hes offside, as his leading foot is clearly past the 10 meter line and scannell is clearly behind the 10 meter line.

when we consider law 10,a few things have to happen.

if hes offside originally, he must immediately retreat behind an onside player to be considered on side. Cloete is the immediately obvious player to consider, as hes clearly onside. but does beirne retreat immediately to be behind Cloete, no he doesnt. hes clearly moving forward when cloete gets to at least in line with him. so thats that out of the way.

so to the question is "is he in front". well i think the picture is clear, and the definition of "in front" includes both feet... so yes hes offside.

It should have at least been looked at.

Jump_In_Jack · 19-10-2021 3:02pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118041992#Comment_118041992

Sorry, but the point has genuinely completely gone over your head.

Can anyone answer the specific question I posted?

Beirne was offside when the kick was made, no question so ,move on to my point, forget about Cloete, he doesn't come into this, Beirne retreated after the kick was taken to being in line with Scannell and then he advanced a second later.

The question is, looking at the screenshot I posted, and not another screenshot showing something else previous to that point which is irrelevant to this question, if the screenshot I posted were shown to a referee would that be offside, and why?

Does the fact he was offside and then retreated to being in line mean he was never back onside, did he need to go behind the kicker or was in line enough?

Again, I think if a referee saw this he wouldn't be too bothered, it's not clear and certain it was offside so it would be given as onside I'd imagine.

hold my beer · 19-10-2021 3:07pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042617#Comment_118042617

Thought Syd answered it quite well myself.

sydthebeat · 19-10-2021 3:09pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118042617#Comment_118042617

your confusion though is based upon the misunderstanding that beirne retreated after the kick was taken. he didnt. he retreated beforehand and, as is clearly shown from my pic he was running forward when the kick was taken.

so regardless of where scannell runs to, beirne was offside when the kick was taken and does not perform any action which allows himself to be brought onside by a forward moving teammate.

the law is clear

An offside player may be penalised, if that player:

Was in front of a team-mate who kicked the ball and fails to retire immediately behind an onside team-mate

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