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Journalism and Cycling 2: the difficult second album

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  • Registered Users Posts: 21,654 ✭✭✭✭Squidgy Black


    Wouldn’t have thought so but gov.ie references “Legislation to support more rapid implementation of BusConnects” in the new bill



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    "In addition, I am currently working on a number of other measures to address in amendments to the Bill during its passage, in particular to facilitate the provision of active travel infrastructure." — Ryan



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Registered Users Posts: 24,008 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    Its a good question and the answer, currently, is not fully yes or no. And that lack of clarity is largely reflected in the Strand Road case.

    In simple terms, the Planning Acts and Regs cover built infrastructure, both public and private. The Roads Act cover the building of new road infrastructure, above certain thresholds of scale and cost, by public bodies. And the Road Traffic Acts cover the administration and regulation of traffic, including laws and offences and also regulations around road signs, markings, limits etc. It also covers things like traffic calming measures and cycle lanes and bus lanes being put in.

    This is where our conflict arises. The Planning Act has associated regulations which include the famous Part VIII, which is a system for Local Authorities to consult and gain approval for projects of many types that are of significant cost or impact, for example housing, drainage, amenities and new local roads.

    When DCC tried to use the Road Traffic Act (Section 38) to implement the Strand Road cycleway, at a cost of 200-300k if memory serves, and intending to close one direction of a major regional road, it quite deliberately exceeded the intent of that legislation and strayed heavily into Part VIII territory. This was a flag I raised at the time and which was borne out when it went to Court.

    Its well within the Minister's right to bring forward legislation to cover larger scale cycle measures and trials and experiments and to put that under the umbrella of the Road Traffic Acts, so long as it reflects the level of consultation, engineering standards and Council oversight you would get with Part VIII, in my opinion. We shall see the colour of his money in due course, but as I said, its a concern that his intention seems to be to introduce it much later than the rest of the Bill. Any playing of games with this will be strongly challenged.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,194 ✭✭✭Thinkingaboutit


    Beemer X3 (or whatever that yoke is called) drivers?



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  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    When DCC tried to use the Road Traffic Act (Section 38) to implement the Strand Road cycleway, at a cost of 200-300k if memory serves, and intending to close one direction of a major regional road, it quite deliberately exceeded the intent of that legislation and strayed heavily into Part VIII territory. This was a flag I raised at the time and which was borne out when it went to Court.

    Lol, they didn't even use your Part VIII argument in court. Probably because they actually read it and realised that it doesn't apply.

    Here's the judgement. Could you point out where this Part VIII nonsense was "borne out in court"?

    You kept insisting that it was against the law. I asked you to point out which law it was against. You talked endlessly about Part VIII after finding it in a DCC presentation through a Google search. They went to court, didn't mention anything about Part VIII and won on a different point entirely in a way which makes a Part VIII process impossible (EIA).



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,008 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    For the purposes of the deliberate misuse of the Road Traffic Act by the Council, Part VIII and the EIA and Habitats directives are essentially interchangeable, in that the petitioners had to pick one to go after them over and the latter are more onerous. Paragraph 44 of the judgement sums up the failure of the Council in this regard.

    In short, I and others argued all along that the Council should have to go through the/a planning process. The High Court said we were right.

    Put it this way, if the Council were preparing a scheme for an application under Part VIII, or under the other directives, it would be a very similar exercise that they would be undertaking.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob


    Pat Kenny using an interview with Brian Farrell of the RSA about National Slow Down Day to get in his usual petty sniping about cyclists and reading out texts about people injured by cyclists going through red lights etc etc.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    fingers crossed for the cyclist, but my god is the language in the headline a bit tortured. what's wrong with 'cyclist'?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,645 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    The use of "van-driver" is a bit disingenuous too



  • Registered Users Posts: 679 ✭✭✭wheelo01


    More than a bit, I would have said . . . . If I as a pedestrian, bump into another person, would the headline say bus driver crashes into car driver?

    It makes sense that it was a collision with the vehicle, but they chose to "humanise" that side.

    I normally need the language used pointed out to me, but this one raised my hackles all by itself. Poor (to say the least) reporting/headline writing.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭hesker


    I’d say it’s a deliberate attempt to avoid the usual language that gets criticised here and elsewhere.

    “Cyclist collides with van” draws a lot of ire.

    Many people appear to be anti-cyclist so the term “cyclist” doesn’t draw much sympathy when a person riding a bike is injured in a collision.

    “Van” vs “van driver” has been explained before



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 49,421 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    but if it's 'man on bicycle' instead of 'cyclist', why isn't it 'man driving van' instead of 'van driver'?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Its not perfect, but its still a lot better at conveying what happened than 'cyclist in collision with van' which has been the norm for years.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,798 ✭✭✭✭zell12




  • Registered Users Posts: 9,393 ✭✭✭Macy0161


    It's a bit convoluted, but humanising these incidents is important. It's a person on a bike, it's a person driving a vehicle.

    I nip to the shops in my "normal" clothes, I rarely get a close pass. When I'm heading out for a spin, on the same roads, it happens nearly every time, presumably as instead of a man going about his business, I become a "cyclist".



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Interesting - I think thats a combination of the infrastructure but also the narrative around MAMILs being a nuisance on the roads, holding up traffic - ergo justifying driver impatience.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,636 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Arguably a cyclist could be a child or an adult, whereas a van driver is always an adult. Maybe it could be argued it distinguishes between the two - i've seen children on bikes described as 'cyclists' before with not further context give.


    Tealeaves I know.....



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,245 ✭✭✭check_six


    This was a particularly odd conversation to listen to. The jist of it was that speed limits are both far too high, and far too low and nobody should be close to either of these limits in either direction. Urban 30kph zones drew particular ire as "even fellows on bikes are going faster than you". This was seen as an affront to Pat's dignity and should not be allowed to stand (surely every single cyclist will be going faster than the cars in traffic in the city centre, no matter the limit?). Low speed limits should not exist in certain places because 'everyone' exceeds them and that's okay, but if a cyclist exceeds a speed limit (which, let us not forget, absolutely does not apply to them legally) this could bring about the fall of civilisation. Motorists must exceed these low limits because they really want to.

    Texter pointed out that no matter how fast a bike is going, it's unlikely to kill you. Pat, quick as you like, brings up the one incident of a cyclist being directly involved in the death of pedestrian from 20 years ago on Merrion Row as a counter (notwithstanding the fact that neither high speed nor actual physical interaction between the two parties occurred in this freak tragedy).

    Weird conversation with many many contradictions.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,859 ✭✭✭Duckjob



    "It's impossible not to break the law because everybody around you is breaking the law and they'll be mad at you if you don't break it as well"

    Classic PK logic. grotequely twisted to support his biases.

    Meanwhile, PK on anything to do with bikes:

    "The law is very clear....."



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭hesker


    Possibly because the lack of empathy is not directed at the van driver. What value would it serve to say “man driving van”



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,645 ✭✭✭Wildly Boaring


    "Man cycling bicycle in critical condition after collision with van driver"


    Van driven by man collides with cyclist. Cyclist in critical condition.

    Van driver collides with man on bicycle. Cyclist now critical.


    ???

    I dunno, Maybe the headline is as good as it gets.

    Just reads to me like the cyclist cycled into a van driver



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Traditionally the stories were written in a manner that distanced the driver from the event but left the cyclist right there in the headline e.g. Cyclist injured in collision with van".

    The stories also tried correctly not to apportion blame to either side but by directly pointing out the cyclist and efectively hiding the driver* from the incident meant that the cyclist always indirectly looked to be responsible.

    What people are trying to encourage article writers (I wouldn't call them journalists!) is that if they point out one of the vehicle users (the cyclist) then why aren't they mentioning the other (the van driver - they can't really say the vanist, can they?). This at lease makes readers aware that two people are involved


    * often articles would not even mention the driver or if they did would often mention how the driver was left unhurt.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,171 ✭✭✭Rechuchote


    Used to be "driver knocks down cyclist" back in the day. Now newspaper editors are afraid of being sued for libel if (.0000001% chance) it turns out not to be the driver's fault.



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle




  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not a long list of suspects, based on information released (29 and Australian)



  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 39,585 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    David O'Doherty has a show coming out on Channel 4 called "The Ride" (a working title) and will include guests such as Grayson Perry, Richard Ayoade, Mel Giedroyc and Joe Wilkinson as they tour some of the most picturesque parts of the UK.




  • Registered Users Posts: 28,939 ✭✭✭✭AndrewJRenko




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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,008 ✭✭✭✭Larbre34


    As is always the case, Oisín O'Connor needs to make himself quiet.



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