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Ireland badly needs a new centre-right party - Here's my proposal

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    It would be more sensible to reign in the criminal fees charged by criminal lawyers in Ireland. The whole cozy relationship between courts, solicitors and barristers (and politicians) which make even a simple case unavailable to the average citizen. Wholesale reform to lower costs and speed up the process. Its not like this on the continent.



  • Registered Users Posts: 15,121 ✭✭✭✭elperello


    Having followed this thread from the beginning I have come to the conclusion that whatever about "Ireland" needing a new centre right party the right wing posters on Boards certainly do.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    So you want to break the western model of criminal justice entirely (1), seeing us censured by the EU, the ECJ, the ECHR and probably the UN, for unspecified savings? That does not seem like a good idea, or one that has had any thought put into it, bar "I don't like criminals" (but who does).

    (1) The principle that an accused person is innocent until proven guilty and is entitled to a defence. By professional lawyers, not the accused standing there saying "I didn't do it."



  • Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    This is so typcially Irish. We all must genuflect to our welfare class otherwise we are "punching down". Except i would raise the little point that other countries don't have this permanent welfare class in place, what makes ireland special? What makes us special is we are a soft touch where being on welfare pays more than lower paid work. You literally made the point yourself when you said they'd lose medical card etc.....YOU ARE MAKING MY POINT....welfare should NEVER pay more than low paid work.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    What is this 48? Including usc, prsi. Isnt it over 50%?



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  • Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    so we re the only country with long term unemployment issues?

    with the current difficulties in filling many low paid jobs, in particular those on pup, is welfare truly enough to survive on, and is low paid work enough to also survive on?



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    40% tax kicks in at €35,300. USC at this level of income is 4.5% + 4% PRSI. The 8% USC doesn't kick in until €70,044.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    UK and Germany to name two. Good luck with thinking you can be long term unemployed. You will be harassed into or fir ed to work and or be on enough welfare to live on bread and water...



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,555 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    this cant be true, we re clearly the only country having these issues! yup, we ve decided harassing people is definitely the best way of dealing with their issues!



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    Wanderer. You speak a lot of truth... but this permanent welfare class here, wouldnt be tolerated in other countries. Skint Britain etc, give it a watch or Britain on benefits. I'd argue the system there is probably a bit too harsh . But we have the other extreme here..many of us pay bloody high tax and I'm not getting free apartments, transport, gp visits etc.. dont expect many to face decreasing living standards, working their ass off, to not look at a whole other large cohort. Living relatively no stress, no responsibility and for them to be paying for this BS! While Fintan who voted for fg twice and works for one of the big four, lives at home with mommy and doddy...

    And if they cant bail him out with a deposit. He is screwed. Well he could emigrate... or house share into mid fifties when he inherits. Or he could live miles from work, drive or take turns third world public transport to dundrum or sandyford. Where the twenty four hour a day pyjama brigade live in free luxury house dundrum shopping centre etc...

    You are right, they absolutely did not make the rules or decisions. That's on a bleeding heart victim culture of the irish left wing media and disgraceful politicians with no backbone, vision, leadership skills. Concerned only with concerned next budget and how rte will depict them ... But domt expect hard workers, not to begrudge many if those not working, hanging a higher living standard...


    The irony that ffg and particularly fg. have primarily looked after the welfare classes , who despise them. Losing many disillusioned voters hands over fist... they are beholden to the welfare class and big business. No wonder the middle for the most part have had enough...



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  • Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Losing many disillusioned voters hands over fist... 

    Are they though? I mean obviously FG has lost a lot of votes since 2011 but is there any solid reason to believe many/most of them were disillusion fiscal conservatives? FG may well choose to believe most of those are still voting for them on the 'best of a bad lot' principle.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    It became apparent to me years ago. How fg were nothing but big spending, decision avoiding liars, magic money trees of their own aplenty when needed. Of course as long as they can lie and have idiots still vote for them on that basis, financial prudence, rewarding the tax payer. They womt change their way. They are lucky the media here is so left leaning and gives them a free ride...



  • Registered Users Posts: 16,572 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    The only thing that will push FG in the direction you favour is the emergence of a serious challenger on the centre right, as per the OP.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    UK spends roughly the same per head, just delivers differently,council flat,free travel etc, add to that a lower cost of living,



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    The reality is that SF will dominate politics for at least the next decade, they are already setting the whole policy agenda which is been adopted and aped by the other parties. FG and FF are all but a spent force and it would take an almighty series of mistakes by SF to change that scenario. This may indeed create the perfect environment for a center right type party to emerge, but unless they have socially progressive policies to address the housing and health crisis they will not gain any serious traction in the country. Market led solutions to these problems, the bread and butter of the right, have failed to deliver solutions only making the crisis worse so I do not see much hope of a new center right party offering any serious new solutions.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,930 ✭✭✭enricoh


    I thought the under enda Kenny fg did a good job but iirc they weren't rewarded in the election.

    Under Leo fg just spent money like water and now they they are in bed with ff who know how to buy an election or 2. They seem to be spending as much as possible so when Sinn Fein get in next time the cupboards are bare.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4 Tadhgg


    A party similar to the Liberals (FDP) in Germany could be successful, a party based on the principals of individual freedom and human rights. The FDP are in favour of tax cuts and rejects any tax increases. They are also openly pro-immigration, being in favour of a points based system based on the Canadian model for non-EU immigration.

    If a party such as this emerged in Ireland and made it clear from the outset that they are pro-immigrant and not socially conservative, they may be able to avoid attracting the far-right types and the accompanied attacks from some sections of the media.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,068 ✭✭✭Murph85


    I agree with a lot of this. God help ffg if this new party emerges before the next election. Also this gem that's always trotted out, about the " market " having " failed "...


    The market is big private business, its aim is profit maximization, like the vast majority of our employers...

    It's a smokescreen bullshit lie, thrown out by government to deflect blame etc... government are meant to be there for the good of the people, not businesses....



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭Shoog


    Government is the private business, or at least a sizable proportion of the TD's are landlords and have property interests. They are looking out for themselves by favouring their own businesses - which is a failure of government. The crisis is caused by FF+FG and they show no willing to solve it so they will have to step aside to allow a party who is prepared to seriously intervene on behalf of the population to solve the problem - thats unlikely to be a new centre right party though and the reason why SF will dominate politics until they **** things up themselves.



  • Registered Users Posts: 985 ✭✭✭Fred Cryton


    The answer to that is to change peoples expectations around housing. Too many Irish people think they should be able to afford a 4 bed with a garden in the centre of our captial city. There are PLENTY of affordable homes, costing €250-300k, outside our major cities.

    Renting is a more difficult one, the market simply cannot deliver homes at a lower rent because the cost of land and construction is so high, so the breakeven rent is high for the owner. Now unless you plan to pay construction workers less money, or are somehow able to reduce the cost of construction materials, then no party is going to make rent cheap. Best thing to do is to create masses of new apartments, flood the market, to dampen down the cost of rent.



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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    Flooding the market will make prices cheaper which will make building uneconomical which will drive prices up and so it continues. The best way to 'solve' the problem is to drive down wages in the building industry by opening our borders to tradesmen and drive down materials cost by increasing supply.

    I would guess that neither of these options will be taken by any party and we will be stuck in a scenario where a small extension is nearly twice the annual net pay of someone on the average wage in Ireland.



  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid


    Em... you remember the Celtic Tiger building boom? When half the apartments being built were to house Polish builders, because if they were going to work here building houses and apartments, they needed somewhere to live? Our borders are already open to the whole of the EU.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig




  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid



    How is this plan of bringing in non-EU workers going to work, do you think? Are you talking a GAMA situation, where some Turkish workers were paid €3.00/hour instead of the €12/hour they should have been paid? You'd be suspending pay agreements for the non-EU-nationals, and minimum wage? And presumable - as they'd need somewhere to live and couldn't afford €1,600/month rents - they'd be confined to compounds? And of course you'd make sure they all leave the country when their contract was complete...



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,759 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    What Ireland needs most is just a party that will look after those that pay for everything first.

    In Dublin atm it seems if you are welfare dependent or rich you can live there.

    If you are a middle rung worker who pays the taxes you can't.

    So something is very wrong at the moment.

    Leo said he would look after the majority of people, workers, in this country and that just hasn't happened.

    I think those people have every right to be angry.

    They see Anto and afternoon pyjama clad Jacinta getting €2,000 p/m apartments in Dundrum while they are told to basically **** off down the country.

    Only a matter of time before this blows up



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    We needed nurses and brought in Indians and Filipinos. Why is this different?



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    We shouldn't need to bring in unskilled labour, Nurses are skilled, some lad to throw meat in boxes isn't,



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,510 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    There are 265,000 people on the Live Register and PUP.

    This figure is falling, which is great.

    There are 15,000,000 unemployed across the EU.

    And yet there are employers looking to hire Africans and Americans.

    https://www.rte.ie/news/business/2021/1028/1256331-employment-permit-system/


    A political party for workers would discourage non-EU immigration, until the 265,000 people are moved into jobs.



  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 22,385 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I never mentioned unskilled labour. I was talking about tradesmen



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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,064 ✭✭✭TaurenDruid



    Seriously? Because you straight out said you wanted to hire them as cheap labour.

    But nurses and other healthcare workers need to either qualify here or have equivalent degree-level qualifications from their own countries, and are employed by the HSE, on standard payscales. And they weren't/aren't hired because they'll work for less than Irish staff, they're hired because we've a huge shortage.



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