Anti-Racism Campaign launched targeting LGBT+

I dont get it. Are you denying that racism exists? or saying its ludicrous that it exists? The campaign isnt referring to lesbians no but it does include trans men - see here

Proud AF - Gay Project

To be honest, the gay (male) community in my experience would objectify most on the basis of looks.... I dont think there is a racism problem in particular in the gay community (well there is some racism, but I would expect it to be proportionate to racism in wider irish community if not less)

Ok but what is your thoughts based on.

Are you White, Irish and Settled?

Have you ever actually had a discussion with a Black or Minority Ethnic person who is LGBT+ about their experiences of racism in the LGBT+ community.

Im asking though how do you know whether its larger than the general populace or not. I also dont really understand why it matters whether its larger in the general populace or not.

I think that position is problematic though of "just tackle racism" rather than tackle racism inside the LGBT+ community alongside tackle racism generally. Its an assumption that everyone experiences the same types of racism which they clearly dont as explained by Bulelani and Darren. Its an assumption that its a way kind of ok for the LGBT+ community to be a little racist/exclusionary because the entire country is. Its not tackling discrimnation where people are targets of multiple forms of discrimination. Its a very narrow way of looking at life because its kind of pigeonholing people into 1 box only when people fit into many boxes.

But again this is ignoring the issues around multiple discrimination and ignoring that sexuality based racism is very different from general racism. Its kind of a strange assumption that everyone experiences racism in the exact same way.

The campaign isnt about general racism. It isnt doubling up on any general anti racist work either because of its specific niche. The campaign isnt saying the majority of gay men are racist. I dont think anyone claimed that. It is about racism within the lgbt community which is a specific type of racism as illustrated by Darren, Bulelani, Pradeep, Viola and Delroy.

I always think its very odd to hear settled white Irish people claim things are not racist when they havent experienced any racism themselves and havent actually ever spoken to Black And Minority Ethnic communities.

I don't think listening to anecdotal accounts give an accurate reflection. Guys being shunned or treated with veiled contempt by other guys is a common enough occurrence. Some of us will feel victimised or mistreated for being too fat, too old, too short, too camp, whatever.

Guys can be cruel to put it bluntly. How it effects us can vary greatly from person to person. For some, it's water off a duck's back, for others its a huge offence.

All of us may have experienced homophobia to greater or lesser degrees. It's very difficult to put us in a situation where we must treat the prejudice experienced by one small group as somehow being much worse than what we commonly experience ourselves.

We are all victims of prejudice, and guilty of prejudice at some stage or another too.

I think the experiences of Darren, Bulelani, Pradeep, Viola and Delroy do explain some of this racism;

Exclusion, judgement, sexual racism, fetishisation, isolation, discrimination, marginalisation, judgement, intolerance, invisibilisation.

Its actually quite sad that you want to deny that this racism exists.

And again we get a white settled viewpoint refusing to listen to any viewpoints from Black or Minority Ethnic people.

This post is lacking in any real insight

1 Its very dismissive of real life experiences

2 Its an attempt to minimise racism

3 Its whataboutery bringing in homophobia and other things like body shaming

4 It doesnt acknowledge that homophobia and racism intertwined are double forms of discrimination

I get what point you are trying to make. But you cannot tackle this problem without looking at the root causes of the issue.

- the inherent shallowness within the gay male demographic around looks.

- the structural levels of racism within Ireland.

I think this campaign can compliment both

Where does the campaign say it is targeted at either white people or Irish people?

It says it's targeted at the wider LGBTQ community in Ireland.

You do realize there are non white and non Irish people within that community?

The issue with the campaigns you are suggesting is that they would not come from a Group within that community.

Its very odd to turn this all into victimhood for cis white gay males 🙄

I think the point of this campaign is that its a different form of racism and can be overtly sexualised or very exclusionary and also that Black or Minority Ethnic LGBT+ people can face racism/bigotry in LGBT+ places/spaces and then homophobia/transphobia in other places/spaces e.g. within minority ethnic communities such as Travelling community or indeed in direct provision. So this campaign is actually not just about racism at all.

It essentially is. You mentioned 'sexual racism'. I looked it up and the explanation of it is that black objectification is a consequences of racism, not just some sexual fetish. So if an Indian guy had a sexual fetish for white guys, that wouldn't considered sexual racism because of course the Indian guy couldn't possibly be racist towards the white guy only the other way around. So there won't ever be any campaigns to highlight the objections of white men in India any times soon, or ever.

As a white guy on Grindr quite a lot, I don't think I've ever been fetishised for being white. Not even once.

Every single black guy I've ever met in Dublin is inundated with messages about BBC.

If you go on Grindr in Dublin as a black person your experience will be heavily about your race. That's not the same for white people no matter how much you pretend that the generic preference for white guys is the exact same thing.

So as far as I can see the only evidence they have of sexual racism is what gay men say on the Grindr dating app where they say they've seen people say no asians, no blacks. It must be 20 years since I've ever seen anyone see those things said on a dating app. Gaydar probably in dial-up days. It just isn't common at all unless maybe in places like Australia where I happen to know white Asians have a big thing for white western men!

It's true you don't see it much anymore. It's no longer socially acceptable to write it. Doesn't mean the racism behind it has improved. I had an Asian friend in Dublin (who has now left) that was constantly told when he was being rejected in a club "I'm not into Asians". I'm not talking once or twice. It was consistent and very upsetting for him. Nobody has ever once mentioned my race when rejecting me. Why is that?

So clearly the reason those study's focus on Grindr is because there is no equivalent in the hetro world. Because men can be frank with other men in a way men cannot be with women on hetro dating apps. And of course they are using this gay sourced evidence as an indicator of something that is prevalent outside of the gay world. Weak AF evidence.

From the study:

"Yet, discrimination on same-sex dating apps remains insufficiently researched, as noted by...This study hence focuses on same-sex attracted men, which includes gay and bisexual men."

The study is pretty clear that it's focus and implications are for same sex dating apps. You are inventing that they are using a study on Grindr to draw conclusions outside of the gay world.

You're also compeltely contradicting yourself again. You state you have a problem with drawing conclusions about racism in general from evidence of racism in the gay community (even though that's not what the study is doing but let's pretend for the sake of argument it is). However you also think racism can only be tackled in a general population wide approach not focussing on specific communities. But you can't have it both ways.

Well of course you didn't because Dublin's gay scene is hardly 1% BAME. You seem to know them all. Do you have a 'thing' for them lol. Which if so is totally fine. In any case I never denied racism exists.

Firstly I need to point out how bizarrely you interpret the things I say. I said "every black guy I've met in Dublin". That could be 2, it could be 10, it could be 50 for all you know. Yet you interpret this as me "knowing them all". How insane is that. You continue it below with Asian guys where I said ONE individual. It seems with any race you basically treat them as one individual. Me knowing even ONE individual of another race is seen by you as knowing every member of that race. It explains a lot about your posts and how you see people of other races.

True story; There's a gay bar in London for Asians and their admirers, I would to go there with my white British Asian friend of Hong Kong heritage. He pointed out to me a very handsome guy, 6'2", tall and very fit guy named Pierce who was a regular there, because all the Asians guys were after him. I'd see him often in the nightclub regularly since shadowed by a edit: group of Asians following on behind him wherever he went like a duck and it's goslings following on behind. So funny. One of the more peculiar things I ever saw on the gay scene. Oh, and critical point is they were all very short, and Pierce was very tall, so clear case of sexual objectification there for his physical attributes, if not for his manhood.

Aren't you white? Were they "following you around"? Did they make sexual comments about your whiteness to you? Surely if this guy was being fetishised for his whiteness you would have been subjected to the same.

No that's not right. People have cottoned on that saying what your 'not' looking is not a good strategy because it's looks negative and a waste of text viewers don't want to read. Better to say what you are looking for. You have to look at it like writing your CV in terms of the impression it makes as well. Does't mean it had racist intent at all. So you know lots of Asians as well now. If someone was coming on to me I wouldn't say anything no matter who they were (unless they were making a pass), I'd just ignore them till they get the message. I think that's the standard way of getting the message across. Bit sceptical about all your reports to be honest. My reports as the one above about Pierce have context and thus believable.

So when I tell an anecdote it's fictional but according to you yours is believable.....you really do live in a fantasy world.

By the way I have discussed the experiences of that friend before on the trans thread. If I was making it up I would have come up with an example of a trans friend not an Asian friend.

I assume that since instead of claiming it's not racist to tell someone you're rejecting them based on their race you're claiking I made it up you do consider it to be racist.

So racism does happen on the gay scene in Ireland.

So...are you inferring here that white hetro men don't objectify black women? But they objectify white women all the time, as we hear of regularly these days?. Hmm. All I am saying is there is really noting unique going on in the gay scene that doesn't happen the other way around somewhere in the world. A reminder that most gay social 'scenes' only exist in Western type countries.

Where are you getting that nonsense I neither inferred or implied anything of the sort. You made a claim about what the study was concluding. I refuted that claim. I never said anything about straight people, white or otherwise. But this is classic Allforit. Instead of dealing with what I actually said, use any tactic to deflect discussion into a topic you're more comfortable with.

When Bangladesh opens it's first gay nightclub I might go visit, I'm sure I'd be really popular with the locals

I seriously doubt it. You're clearly no Philip.

I was open to your opinions until you claimed that because I have met some black gay guys in Dublin that I "know them all".

You seem to view other races as one big identical individual. If you don't want people to conclude these things about you then don't post stuff that suggests it.

So next time someone tells you about the experience of ONE Asian friend maybe don't respond "oh you seem to know a lot of them".

The fetishizing of gay black men is well known about. Stop doing it. Do better.

https://medium.com/@LPP1/dear-white-gay-men-please-stop-fetishizing-black-men-f71e9f9a7f29

I'm not doubling down on anything. Try listening to minorities within the community instead of simply viewing them as objects for your own sexual gratification. Did you even read the article posted? Do better llmmll, do better.

So you didn't read the article then. This is exactly why these anti-racism are needed, and there should be more of them to root out the rampant racism exhibited in the LGBT community.