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Remote working - the future?

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Comments

  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Where did someone say "it would be illegal to reduce wages for an employee who wishes to voluntarily change their contract of employment"?



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    “Regardless, its a moot point as it does not apply to remote working in the Irish context”

    Hmmmm. 😏



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Now now, I asked

    Where did someone say "it would be illegal to reduce wages for an employee who wishes to voluntarily change their contract of employment"?

    What you quoted from me is not what you stated above.

    Because what I stated vs what you stated are 2 VERY different things



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Are you stating that an employer cannot reduce the wages of an employee who works remotely? The discussion prior to that between myself and denartha was about the choice between choosing to work in the office or at home, and would he/she accept a lower wage if he/she chose home, you said it was moot as the employer cannot cut pay if denartha chose home.

    What are you saying now, that you didn’t read the thread before you commented and only meant if the employer forced denartha to work from home?

    Or, are you sticking to your guns that an employer cannot cut pay if you chose to wfh? That is a fundamental change to the contract of employment which required denartha (presumably as that is what we were discussing) to attend the office for work prior to the pandemic. If you are, there are plenty of recent articles published online that state otherwise, and you have only linked an article relating to forced wfh during the pandemic.

    Please clarify, otherwise we are going around in circles.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    we are going around in circles.

    Indeed.

    You seem to be equating someone voluntarily changing their terms of employment, for example, moving shift, or job share etc, with a change in salary unilaterally imposed by the employer that the employee must accept. I feel this is where your confusion lies.

    You are also assuming that a new contract of employment is required for WFH. What is this assumption based on? As this is the major premise of your whole argument, I'd love to know why you feel this is the case.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Seriously?

    The work location is changed, the employer and employee have a whole new set of obligations relating to attendance, workspace, H&S, insurance, oversight, communications, GDPR, equipment etc, etc, of course there will be changes to contracts, all because the employee is choosing not to attend an office.

    Up to now wfh has been a temporary arrangement imposed in line with pandemic guidance by the Government, contracts did not require change, but what denartha and I were discussing was permanent wfh when offices are open and employees can return.

    Again, are you stating that it would be illegal for an employer to cut wages because an employee, in this case denartha is choosing to work from home? Yes or no.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    The work location is changed, ........ of course there will be changes to contracts, all because the employee is choosing not to attend an office.

    Why is a new contract required for WFH? What requirement is there that drives this?

    Again, are you stating that it would be illegal for an employer to cut wages because an employee, in this case denartha is choosing to work from home? Yes or no.

    Asked and answered



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    You’ve worn me down DaCor, I’ve nothing more to add that hasn’t already been said.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,619 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    It is, can, and will apply in Ireland as the location of employment is charging so its a new contract of employment.

    The bizarre piece is that you don't see this.

    Call ir reverse disturbance money😎

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



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  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Asking the following because I don't know the answers and I haven't found anything online to provide answers. If you or others do know the answers (some of you appear very knowledgeable on the topic) please feel free to take a crack at the following questions:

    1. Why is a new contract required for WFH? What requirement is there that drives this? You and others have said "because the location is changing" but why does the location changing drive a new contract requirement? Is there a part of employment law this falls under?
    2. Would the same requirement apply, for all new contracts of employment, with all onsite staff if a company moved 3 doors down the street? What about across the street? Or over to the next townland? Or the next county?
    3. What part of requiring a new contract allows an employer to impose a salary reduction? Using the example above of moving a short distance, if they moved offices could they not just impose salary reductions across the board for everyone employed there?
    4. In my personal experience, contracts of employment give a rough address, rather than a very specific one so if I my contract stated the place of business as Galway City, and I lived in Galway City, would a new contract still be required? If yes, why?
    5. As contract law requires both employee and employer to consent to changes in the terms of the contract, if an employer tries to impose a paycut for WFH, what happens if an employee does not consent? Refusing to allow the employee to WFH at that point due to non-agreement will not fly as a reason to refuse WFH as it would be discriminatory would it not?
    6. As per the Employment Equality Act, there is an "Entitlement to equal remuneration", specifically It shall be a term of the contract under which C is employed that, subject to this Act, C shall at any time be entitled to the same rate of remuneration for the work which C is employed to do as D who, at that or any other relevant time, is employed to do like work by the same or an associated employer. So, if John & Mary are doing the same job, and the only difference is Mary is WFH, how can an employer adhere to the Employment Equality Act and impose a salary reduction for WFH when the only difference is location?
    Post edited by [Deleted User] on


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    Once again you are completely wrong in my case. I am over 50 and got a big increase on my last salary with my current, fulltime, WFH position. I also got a €1000 allowance fitting out my home office. I also get broadband paid monthly, as well as montly food vouchers (office has free restaurant for staff working in the office, so as I don't, I get food vouchers instead) Some companies in this country still ,thankfully, value their staff.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble



    I'm pleased that it worked out for you.

    My own experience, and that of a number of other people I know, is that after 50 it got lot harder to even get a job.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 813 ✭✭✭kathleen37


    Thanks.

    I appreciate it took longer than I thought, I was told more than once I was "too experienced", which I took to mean "too old" but I persevered. I do think it would have been much much easier to find a job had I been in work when I was looking, especially in the tech industry where tech moves so fast, but I left my previous job to look after my Mum full time after she had a stroke.

    I also appreciate I'm lucky to have got into a company that I now love who genuinely values its staff. Certainly the best company I have ever worked for. I hope if nothing else this post can let people know that there are excellent jobs out there and people that value your work and values and are prepared to employ you based on that, rather than how you look.

    I'm not saying it isn't hard out in the job market, it obviously is. But it rankles when people are written off due to their age, or for being female, disabled, gay or whatever.

    My contract also states my work location is my home, and as I mentioned earlier, there are perks specifically related to that. I won't be accepting any decrease in wages as my contract already states I work from home permanently. Currently, no one has to return to the office until some time next year unless they want to, and they are currently offering people the opportunity to WFH either hybrid or permanently. No decrease in wages.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,619 ✭✭✭✭Calahonda52


    Good stuff K37!! delighted for you😀

    If you have a skill set that is in demand and you are good with it, then there is no issue with getting work.

    I am 69 next week and not discarded yet😎

    This thread has mainly been around a focus on employee rights, real and imaginary, with little or no account of the new realities.

    Plenty work in Vietnam, especially around Ho Chi min city and the industrial surrounds

    They just lifted movement restrictions and this allowed migrants to go back home, be it back home in rural Vietnam or else where.

    2.5 m from 3.1 million migrants have said they are going home... so huge supply chain issues for garments etc.

    “I can’t pay my staff or mortgage with instagram likes”.



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    As a matter of interest how much did yours work out too?

    While I gave online bills for has and power, Virgin as my broadband supplier can't split out the BB to tell me what portion of the bundle deal I'm on is, and Revenue say you need it in case they check (unlikely I know but what % of your bill is BB worth?)



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  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Next budget has updated options for WFH

    It’s understood the final negotiations are now focused on two options, either: 


    1. Allowing workers claim back 20% to 30% of energy bills against taxn

    2. Increasing the daily working from home allowance that is paid by some employers 


    Under the current rules, Revenue allows those working remotely to claim tax relief on the additional costs of working from home, including electricity and heat.


    The rate you can currently claim is 10% of the total amount of utility bills against your taxes.


    You can also claim 30% of broadband costs for the tax year. This was introduced as a Covid-19 measure and was due to last for the duration of the pandemic. No end date was given and it’s understood there are considerations underway to make this a permanent fixture. 



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Yep saw that, TBH a flat rate per day would be the cleanest and easiest. Some will will gain and some will lose with varying WFH costs but would be cleaner.

    At the moment is a pittance and have seen some people say after the trouble of calculating it its worth less than €100 a year.

    Assume any budget changes will be for this tax year and beyond, not retrospective.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,833 ✭✭✭Patsy167


    Employees working at home will be allowed claim back 30% of their energy bills against tax

    https://www.thejournal.ie/remote-working-budget-2022-5572136-Oct2021/



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,627 ✭✭✭caviardreams


    Only for the days they WFH e.g. 220/365 or whatever - relief would be 40% or 20% of approx €400 (so 80 or 160 back in cash) for somebody working full time from home with combined bills over the year of €2k



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger


    Assuming you are a couple and between the two of you someone is WFH every day, you can claim for 100% of work days in a year given you both cant claim 30%.



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  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    ....



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Turnover was down during a global pandemic. Yeah, that was due to work-from-premises-you-pay-for.



  • Registered Users Posts: 42 123Dublin456


    Hi, can I jump on this and ask as someone hoping for a career change in the new year, probably after the summer, what jobs do you all have? What courses would be good for the jobs you have or do you have degrees that were really specific to them? I wish to change career and have at least a work from home option in the future for some time maybe a day or two a week but really that isn't the main reason. Just really want to feel more confident that I can look good on paper for some of these roles which tend to be remote or have the option. Sorry to change the thread topic but I'm guessing some of us In non work from home jobs would love this information.



  • Posts: 11,614 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Computer Security Consultant, focussing on Penetration testing. Didn't go to college. It's a very easy area to get into, but you have to love it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 42 123Dublin456


    Thank you, I've never heard of that before but I will research it now. Do you need to love working with computers do you mean or what would you compare the role to? I'm definitely considering some tech courses. Any idea of what other type jobs would be similar? I do have a degree but it wouldn't be specifically suited to many jobs besides the one I want a change from.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Go on to any of the job websites and filter by remote/work from home and you'll get a list of all roles with that option. Try a few different sites as the lists vary.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble




  • Registered Users Posts: 70 ✭✭Madelyn


    I haven't read all the thread.

    I have heard some people I work with say people WFH should have a pay cut. My argument is what about all the people who live within 20 mins from work before covid... Should they be paid less than the people who travel longer distances?

    There is nothing like a crisis to pit people against each other. Yes people WFH have no travel expenses now but before covid they had higher expenses than people living locally.

    WFH might not be available to everyone or not suitable for everyone depending on personal circumstances but not everything in life is fair or equal..



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    RTE news : Remote work sees villages benefit from move back home





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  • Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭Young_gunner


    I'm hopeful that this postponement of the office return means that the future of remote / wfh is much more secure - not even the most ardent of office fans can deny it now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    This is an amazing change to society, villages and rural areas being suddenly revitalised, perhaps even struggling to cater for influxs of population, while cities have to repurpose themselves as centres for primary industries rather than services.

    The implications are enormous, people need social outlets now in a way they didn't, while they also have more time. Rural areas will need a range of businesses such as cafes, small newsagents, at the same time as these businesses go into decline in cities.

    It's a good time for people with the vision to see what will work in rural areas in the future. The village I live in has hundreds more people here in the day time that it would have had pre pandemic, one of my sons is opening a cafe and he's sure it'll work. I think he's right, to be fair to him he has a good nose for things like that.

    Over the years cities have generally been wealthier than rural areas, and that trend intensified since 2000 or so. It's bound to go into reverse now, well paid and highly educated workers are more likely to work remotely.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    It certainly allows more time for research on actual productivity now that the urgency of pandemic conditions has recorded. This will be far more useful than data collected in 2020.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    One of the things people always miss is that if productivity is even roughly similar with remote work and in office, then the remote work option is by far the best because you can downsize or hopefully close your office. For many companies, including my one in the North, it's a huge boost.


    It strikes me that people minimise that and don't realise that's the real reason remote working is going to be prevalent. It's nice to save your staff time etc, but really paying for an office is a massive business cost. This is like someone showing a PAYE worker how to get out of paying a mortgage or rent.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Alternative way of stating the same thing:

    You can make more profit by shifting the cost of providing office space to your employees (who cannot even claim it as a tax deductible expense).

    Well done you.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 77 ✭✭CalisGirl


    Well except for the 30% tax credit employees can claim for expenses from the next tax year and any other equipment/allowances given by employers. Frankly, it's a cost most employees will be delighted to accept for increased control over workday (especially as they're paying for rent/mortgage regardless).



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Not to mention the absence of commuting costs, the risks of covid transmission, not having to deal with office politics etc etc etc

    But some don't see it that way and prefer to go to the office, grand, let them off.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Employees cannot claim the cost of rent. That is where the real cost lies.

    If I had to provide an employer with office space long-term, I would need to either rent an office or move to a larger house. The commuting cost saving of €74 per month wouldn't go near covering the extra cost of renting more space than I have now.



  • Registered Users Posts: 28 AP2021


    I think that this is where the idea of regional hubs comes into its own. Government are planning the opening of 400 more of these in various locations.


    There are lots of towns all around the country that have been hollowed out by both the decline of retail and the lack of a market for hospitality and services as working age people with disposable income have been moving to Dublin or spending their time commuting to larger cities for work. Already with COVID we've seen coffee shops and the like opening in such places now that workers are around again.

    A regional hub in such a town populated by public servants and private service sector workers would be transformative for the economic and social life of those towns. It would to some degree bring back the type of activity that you saw when many of these towns were industrial centres.

    It also means that you don't need to necessarily have your main workspace be in your own home. A 20 minute commute to the nearest hub is far easier for many people than a commute to the city centre, and still offers lots of the conveniences and social needs that going to an office fulfils.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭MrMusician18


    I don't really understand what kind of argument that you're trying to make. Employees cannot claim the cost of a commute or the fact that they need to live in high demand residential areas either.

    Working from home is a trade off, yeah you have to trade the cost of a suitable home office Vs the cost of a commute which has a monetary, time and indeed opportunity cost associated with it.

    Unless you live very close to your office already and are on low wages and have an expensive rental then WFH is likely to be financially beneficial to you, despite the fact that there is a cost associated with a home office.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    Go into the office then, problem solved for you



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,094 ✭✭✭Sarn


    If that remains an option. My understanding of the point being made by Mrs OBumble, in this case, is where an employer closes their office to save rental costs and shifts that to the employee by using the employee’s space at home.

    The other option of course would be to get a new job where the working conditions are suitable.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    The other option of course would be to get a new job where the working conditions are suitable.

    Indeed, many are leaving their current employment due to employers stopping WFH, so the same holds for those who are working for employers who are continuing WFH. If it doesn't suit, change employer.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,112 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    That is exactly the point I was making, in response to Sunny Disposition's statement that running a physical office is an unnecessary expense for a business.

    Providing adequate facilities to do the job is a core part of any employer's responsibilities.



  • Posts: 15,362 [Deleted User]


    RTE news : Where does return to offices stand after Covid spike?


    http://www.rte.ie/news/politics/2021/1022/1255444-govt-restrictions-analysis/



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,777 ✭✭✭C3PO


    LV was very careful not to close the office door …. Literally!



  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators Posts: 6,588 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sheep Shagger




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 116 ✭✭scottygee


    What degree do you have? Instead of doing courses, you could probably do a bridging program at ITT for computer/software engineering. They have a 3-year course, and with luck, if you carry over units you can finish it in much much less time.

    Remote working as a software engineer/programmer is definitely a big thing nowadays. On that note with remote work, you can try and do something... a wee bit more lucrative like dropshipping (more on that here) or managing e-commerce stores. If you have any degree related to HR or a business degree, the shift is relatively easy.

    A thing that you need to realize is working online (i.e. remotely) is not limited to tech, it's applicable to almost every industry now!



  • Registered Users Posts: 42 123Dublin456


    Thank you, I'm not sure I'm that suited to pure tech as in computer software etc but I definitely want to train up. I think the career landscape has changed so much in the last 10 years that jobs have really changed, I think those ideas sound great, I think I'll start off with some courses and then hopefully also try to gain some experience In a field I'm interested in and talk to some people working in it if possible. The idea of remote work is exciting to me even though I don't really mind the idea of an office too so hybrid sounds ideal. Dropshipping seems to be the new big thing also!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    The transition to remote may be unfortunate for some, no doubt it is, but no one is in business to make employees happy (of course its nice if they are). There's no way anyone is going to go to the expense of keeping an office open if they don't have to. Plus it would be a major disadvantage on competitors.

    My staff are quite happy with the transition in any event, I've been in touch a lot with them since the permanent office closure happened. Most of them would find it easy to get a job elsewhere, but we've only lost three this year, when I spoke to those they all were going into new remote or hybrid roles, they were just going for a career progression or more money which is fine, it happens all the time. Tbh I'd be happy to have only lost three, it's pretty good. Now if a lot of people were complaining about remote work and I couldn't keep staff I might have to re-evaluate, but there's no sign of that thankfully.



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