Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

Options
13253263283303311157

Comments

  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Just personnel-wise, I’d like to see:

    • Kelleher nail down the hooker spot, with a rock solid lineout. Obviously, the hooker unfairly gets the brunt of the blame any time there are lineout issues, but if he can eradicate any errors on his throwing, there’s huge upside to the rest of his game.
    • Keenan more involved in attack. He just seems to keep getting better and better any time I see him.
    • Coombes start (at least) one game. He’s been phenomenal for Munster for 12 months now and brings a level of aggression to his carrying that I think we’re missing. He’s got a great offload and is a serious threat over the ball as well.
    • And personally looking forward to seeing Zebo back in green, and excited to see Baloucoune feature again.

    If we can continue the variety in attack that we saw for the Jack Conan try against England, I’d be pretty happy to with that too.



  • Registered Users Posts: 12,920 ✭✭✭✭stephen_n


    Have you noticed Frawleys injury record?


    Frawley was moved to 12 because he wasn’t going to get past the other 3 10’s. He doesn’t have the game management aspect of a top level 10.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,494 ✭✭✭ersatz


    It's been interesting to se how Leinster are using Kelleher as a carrier, I'd like to see the ball getting to him out wide, it would also be great to see Keenan add more to his Ireland performances by joining the line at 12 or 13. More creativity among the backs would be welcome but box kicking is a limited tactic as this stage, particularly as Murray's accuracy has not been top drawer for a couple of seasons. I thought JPG brought great pace to ruck recycling against Japan but that doesn't create much if the receivers are static and predictably carry into contact, some variation to keep defenses guessing would be welcome and there was some evidence of that against Japan. As above it will be interesting to see how well Frawley adapts to test rugby, he has great footwork and a nice pass.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    Their aim in this expperiment was to get afew quality 10s into their team, as a result they now have 2. That’s looks like getting it right to me unless I’m missing something. The fact you like many must deflect from this and talk about France as a whole shows deep down you totally agree with me but don’t want to admit it.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,762 ✭✭✭accensi0n




  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Technically, I think the box kick came in the middle of about 18 phases? ;)

    It got us entry into their 22 down to Keenan’s brilliant take, but we saw decent variety both sides of the kick, iirc.



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,098 ✭✭✭UAEguy2020


    That’s the point, they had scant little options at 10 (They were playing Bauxis in the 2018 Six Nations for crying out loud) and even Lopez isn’t that good either, most French fans I know don’t rate him at all. The point is they had to take a chance, but in doing so they were throwing in Jalibert who had 15 career appearances for Bordeaux Begles straight into their starting XV versus Ireland in 2018, I’d imagine if he was at Munster or Leinster he wouldn’t have even broken the double digits for appearances at the point yet here he was. Ntamack in 2019 wasnt starting at 10 in any big games for Toulouse, playing either 12 or on the bench behind Zack Holmes.


    the point is in these circumstances do you think we have given any of these same players the time of day? Not a prayer. I’d get you’re point if Jalibert and Ntamack were atleast somewhat experienced at even Top 14 level but France backed them in ways we could only dream of doing. I’m just getting sick of the constant moaning and excuses about the situation at 10 yet there seems to be very little really being done about it, the way we have given game time to other 10s so far is the equivalent of doing homework for class in the hallway 30 mins before the class starts, yes it’s got done but in the end are we really doing anything about the overall picture? Our young 10s need a run in the team (for example what France did with Ntamack) and allowed the opportunity to fail or succeed as best case scenario he is a perfect replacement and worse case scenario he learns a valuable lesson at this level (no 10 I would write off until they have had multiple consistent goes in the shirt). If our 10s aren’t starting they need to be given proper game time off the bench. If none of this is done then fine but I don’t want to hear anyone bitching and moaning about our situation at 10, it’s a by product of us not being prepared and showing we have learnt nothing from previous RWC failures that we look doomed to repeat.



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,091 ✭✭✭✭Clegg


    I agree with you on the subject of attacking strategy. There simply has to be improvement there. We've a lot of individually talented backs who don't seem to be playing as a unit.

    Bringing Frawley into the team at 12 could be signalling a change in approach. For as good as Henshaw and Ringrose are, neither can say that distribution is their primary skill. Frawley has rapidly become very important to Leinsters attack in recent weeks. He hasn't been trying anything outrageous either. Just drawing a man in midfield before passing go a player in space. It's helped us improve our wide attack quite a bit.

    I've been quite impressed by the job Farrell has done with the pack. He has integrated a new generation of young forwards into the side and is bringing in more. I think we're a match for any side in the 6 Nations when it comes to quality up front. Some have bigger athletes, but we're very well drilled in open play and at the set piece. We now need to see some innovation from Catt when it comes to actually getting points on the board. For much of the last two years the good work from the forwards has gone unrewarded.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Unless they go down on matchday someone else will be brought in to play 10.


    As to what I want to see. Anything except constant pick + drives once we get into the 22.



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,862 ✭✭✭Former Former Former


    I'd like to see;

    • Keenan continue to step up. He's been a revelation at FB and a good display against NZ would be massive.
    • Someone to really claim a jersey on the wing. Earls is 34 and it's hard to see a real standout from the remainder.
    • Coombes to get a decent run against NZ and/or Argentina.
    • The Porter to LH thing to pay off.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    That WAS their problem until 2019 when they took decisive measures - tightening the JIFF rules, hiring a manager with a vision and courage after a string of milquetoast yes-men, jettisoning everyone over a certain age and using tournaments like the Covid cup and the Australia tour to blood as many young, promising players as possible. We've yet to see any concrete results in terms of silverware but in two years they've built a huge squad with great depth in nearly all positions. Which of course is normal given the resources available to them.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Must love hardship


    I'd like to see us not box kick possession away on turnover ball in mid field.

    From a players perspective I'd like to see frawley get a run at 12 with ringrose at 13 and id like to see a few passing phases and not just 5 phases and kick..



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I'd like to see us play like we're favourites against New Zealand and impose some sort of a game on them. Even if it means a 50-point drubbing I want Ireland to go out believing they can and will win every game.

    I'd like Harry Byrne to stay fit and play a stormer against Japan, prompting a serious discussion on whether he's ready for the big time.

    I'd like a real balance in the back row, whatever the personnel. That said, I think Coombes needs to be involved as much as possible as we have been crying out for a carrier of his heft and calibre for some time.

    I'd like for the referee not to be mentioned apart from to say he/she did a good job.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    All of that has resulted in improved performances for them (even if the tournament wins haven't quite come yet).

    But all of that was off the back of unprecedented failure which UAEguy seems to want to overlook. If they win next years 6 Nations, it'll be their first win since 2010, a 12 year wait. Previously, they had never gone more than 4 years without a win, dating all the way back to their first (shared) title in 1959.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    UAEGuy seems to think people agree with him “deep down” when they don’t. I don’t think we need to entertain their delusion any longer.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    and when was the last time they were dropped from the squad?maybe Toner? Healy had huge injury issues.

    A central contract mostly protects your squad status. its not a conspiracy. its just logical. why would they pump money into the few players and not have them involved. personally i think its a stupid system that doesn't reflect form. if it was 20-30 odd players yeah fine. but a rolling number of about 11 etc with all the status and sponsorship profile that brings, nah not for me. look at Stockdale on the outside now. yeah his initial burst onto the scene demanded central contract status, by why now? sport is way too fluid for thsi shite, and the system is archaic. move it off an official list, keep it in house or just top up provinces with extra money. its all the same budgets (in practical terms), its just an illusion that it isn't.

    I mean Keenan has been great. but if you give him a central contract and don't give Larmour one. what does that do for anybody? ditto say Kelleher or Doris, when their rivals are basically their equals.

    i think we will move away from it now. we are producing far too many good rugby players. atm we ahve a system where we have high profile central contracts not deserving of their spots, even argubally in the squad. like 400k-500k more than their in form equivalents. thats just nuts in sport. terrible in a team environment where most players are now equals. theres a reason the Liverpool players won't mind if Salah gets 500k a week. cause he's the best in the World. That also may have been true for Drico and POC, ROG, O'Brien back in the day but now? only a peak Sexton could fit that mould. Furlong due to his position and ability. now its way too even. Again if the IRFU want to expand it again like the old days, yeah maybe it works.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,471 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Best players in their position offered central contracts and play in test games shocker!!!!!



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    best players at the time.

    Now...

    POM, Murray, Earls et al.

    Naaah.

    So make it as simplistic as you want, its not true and distorts everything we do.

    At this rate the whole team will have to be on central deals. Sheehan looks as good as kelleher. Doris and COombes etc. Again if we want to go back to the old days and have more deals, fine. but it doesn't work with 11 ringfenced players. they have to be head and shoulders above the others. Only Furlong fits that now, at this stage. And guys like POM were never head and shoulders above anybody.

    Outhalf is a great example of what we are facing. we have loads of options coming on board. Two at Munster, which will most likely force Carbery to make a decision. Lowry will move to outhalf. none are as good as Sexton. however we are in probably the 4th cycle of pro rugby in IReland. it makes sense that the disparities of individual talent are petering out. mostly now the players are all pretty solid on basics. strength, fitness, core skills. so who you give deals to is far more complex than the old days. and by oild days i mean pre 2015.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    I wonder with the new URC format, of no club games during International windows, will this have an impact on central contracts?



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,471 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    no one is ringfenced.

    once you realise this simply fact you will see how fluid the irish selection is



  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    i hope so. personally i think its an archaic system. if it were another sport Murrays loss of form would lead to a transfer or a reduction. in Ireland its rewarded and bizarrely indulged by outside factors. like POM, Gatland bought into the status and quickly realised his mistake. Here we just plough on regardless. Murray could be 4th choice and he'd still be on his reported 700k plus sponsorship deals trading on his central status. its beyond ridiculous now. i can't believe that irish rugby is so exceptional that it doesn't have an effect on individual morale.

    anyway for me i see it as a positive. The IRish team and system is so balanced that it no longer needs to rely on a Drico or POC and the ringfencing of certain guys. we are about a cycle away i imagine of having nearly 2 players for every position.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    its only starting to be fluid now. mainly because our talent is spread so well. which is natural seeing we are now in 2021. anyway we've been here before we will never agree. only Toner has really been dropped from the squad and he was finishing up. the system was grand when it was the old days, and a larger group. then they changed it to 11 and it was relatively ok as you had big characters getting them. but they held on to them longer than they should. with the pandemic i suppose its justifiable that some of the lads were rewarded with deals for exploits. but now with alot retiring shortly, and alot of the players now equals among the squad, it only makes sense to reset it.

    anyway its a positive thing. Coombes, Doris, Conan. Out of that 3 none of them deserve to be a special status player. cause they are brilliant.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Why are you saying he's overlooking it and, more to the point, why are you making out like it's relevant? If someone fat goes on a diet and loses 50kg do you, as an overweight person think 'maybe that guy's diet could work' or 'the point is he used to be fat' ?



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,471 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat




  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    ok fair but he subsequently snowballed out of reckoning. which we now know is probably due to the hip issue. and a resurgant Healy. its a complex situation i'm not trying to deny that. and Murray did earn it at the time. as did Stockdale.

    I dunno i just think its going to have to change. Look its basic function is to keep guys playing in Ireland. thats the crucial thing of course.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,737 ✭✭✭irelandrover


    I always thought players were put on central contract to benefit their province. They are expected to be away for large parts of the year so it was seen as unfair that their wages come from the province wage budget.

    Murray would get sponsorship money if he was on a central contract or a munster contract.

    Do you think Farrell will risk his job by playing an out of form o mahony, just because he is on a central contract.



  • Subscribers Posts: 41,471 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    ok fair but he subsequently snowballed out of reckoning. 

    so.., imagine that, a centrally contracted player not picked for the squad due to loss of form....

    its almost as if that totally negates your whole premise of centrally contracted players being "ringfenced" and having "protected squad status"....



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Of course it's relevant. In your analogy, I'd ask what spurred them to (eventually) go on a diet?

    I don't think it's too controversial to suggest if you have endured sustained failure for a large number of years that you may be more likely to take a risk on youth.



  • Administrators Posts: 53,710 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec




  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    one example, wow case closed.

    if you don't believe that a player getting a 700k deal even when his past is long gone, is special status, and essentially protected, i don't know what to tell you. for every jack mcgrath theres dozens of other examples of the opposite happening. Bowe, stockdale, D'arcy, Pom, Murray. all rewarded with middling form on the back of past exploits. Craig Casey could win World player of the year and he'd still be earning about half a million less. so Murray is rewarded with what is essentially a protected special status. i mean money and contracts in sport is status. as i said Salah in soccer is a perfect example. its getting to the point where his team mates will demand Liverpool pay him 500k a week. thats what happens when you reach those levels. Murray did for a time. at his peak. now he doesn't deserve that discrepancy in wages. now i believe it confers him more things, but i have zero proof.

    but anyway whatever. im looking at it as a positive. i.e that we have mutiple guys per position now, and its far more complex shoehorning them into 11 deals. you seem to want to turn it into a negative. thats your right.

    anyway i'm fairly certain central contracts in their current guise will die out. so its all kind of moot. how do you pick between Conan, Coombes, Doris in the central contract system if only 11ish guys are getting them? you don't. so you either go back to a larger number or you take it off the books as it were. in no other teram sport in the World with squads of 35 plus are underperforming players given limited, publicised special higher paid contracts, earmarked out in press releases. its **** daft, and way past its sell by date.



Advertisement