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Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Murray signed his last deal back in 2018 when he and Aaron Smith were the 2 best SH’s in the world. What do you expect the IRFU to do, break his contract?



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    yeah thats a fair point. sport is really fluid. i expect with a load of retirees, and new blood that a reset will be examined.

    anyway a 4 year deal at 700-800k was questionable in retrospect given that the slide had actually started to show not so long after.

    anyway as i said it matters not about the past. its a positive. our squad is full of competing talent. it makes the deals kind of silly now. if you give Casey one now say, along comes Doak. Ditto with the backrow, or Hume and Ringrose. i think the system is dead in the water in its currrent guise, in 2021. if you want to keep it move it to a larger number.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Philip Browne is not dictating to Andy Farrell who he has to start. Its an utterly asinine assertion. If you think Farrell is starting Murray cause he is paid more you have absolutely no concept of how professional sports works.


    Central or provincial, the IRFU ultimately pay them either way.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    "anyway a 4 year deal at 700-800k was questionable in retrospect given that the slide had actually started to show not so long after."

    Questionable in retrospect perhaps, but you can't sign contracts in retrospect. I don't think anyone at the time was saying it was questionable.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    yeah you are right it was well recieved. but i had a bugbear about central deals back then as well. it wasn't the first time its happened. sport is fluid, form changes. aas we saw with all the **** deals over time ala Eddie O'Sullivan. and when it does we can't transfer them out. i'd be amazed if Murray isn't starting from now till 2022. and alot of it is to do with that money. and the prestige that all of it entails. he has sponsorship out the ears on the back of that prestige (which was earned through years of excellence), which in turn leads itself to prestige and deals for IRFU. if anybody thinks that is outlandish, the Lions is a case in point. same thing happened with POM, despite the reality of their form. And if i was another scrumhalf earning 500k less but outperforming him i'd be frustrated as hell.

    Anyway i don't have a massive issue with Murray. My main gripe in this type of scenario would be O'Mahony. Lads love him, a great voice and character. but has played very few games where you go..yeah thats a 600k a year central deal. He 100 per cent should not be in the Irish backrow on form. and until it happens to a really big name like that i won't accept syds argument. McGrath and Toner were on the way out. its totally different.

    anyway its a positive. we have too many good players now for these deals going forward.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,027 ✭✭✭TomsOnTheRoof


    His form so far this season has been very good. Now he might not get in with all the competition and that's fair enough but to suggest that he shouldn't be in contention on form isn't accurate.

    I'd hazard a guess that he'll be in or around the match day 23. Should make this place interesting anyway.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    If you don't think failure to win a single knockout game in the World Cup since its inception is a failure, you're just sucking in your belly.



  • Registered Users Posts: 762 ✭✭✭starkid


    he's going to be in and around the squad. i just mean in the starting 15. And very good is overegging it slightly. He's been ok. a cursory glance at munsterfans will show you that regular fans are divided on his form. its backed up by some stats on the league website - https://www.unitedrugby.com/clubs/munster/peter-omahony.

    he's always a threat at lineout and the other players love his leadership. None of that is in question.

    he hasn't been a 600k central contract worthy player for quite some time.

    anyway this will be the season it all peeters out i imagine. Alot of players getting to that age, others demanding inclusion. Its going to get very very messy and brutal.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    See, where did I say it wasn’t?

    France had 34 half-back combinations between 2012-2020, the year after Ntamack was given his chance. All I’m saying is that holding them up as a beacon of what we should have been doing doesn’t stack up.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    That’s a bit disingenuous, no? In the same time as those RWC failures we’ve had successes in almost every other way we could have had successes. France haven’t.

    Either way, France didn’t take a chance on youth. They selected players on merit who happened to be young. The competition in those spots wasn’t exactly fantastic and the talent these young half backs had was pretty exceptional. Very, very little of that is comparable to Ireland. So I’ve no idea why we are discussing France.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,574 ✭✭✭arsebiscuits1


    The IRFU are essentially getting criticised for not having a time machine...

    A good player is valuable at a time. They're put on big money while they're hot property which rewards form and keeps other suitors away.

    Subsequently things may change.

    This is not a new concept and not unique to rugby.

    Liverpool are essentially writing a blank cheque to Mo Salah to try keep him. At this point in time that is the right decision because if they don't he goes.

    If he stays on his massive wedge and a multi year contact, he might continue his form. Or he might not.

    But it's unquestionably the correct decision to keep him



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    he hasn't been a 600k central contract worthy player for quite some time.

    Would you be happy if he was a 600k provincial contract player? Either one of those or letting him walk were the options. Central contracts are basically an accounting tool, nothing more and the focus on them is absurd.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,753 ✭✭✭Jump_In_Jack


    Who is on a central contract now? I count 12.

    Healy-2022, Furlong-2022, Henderson-2023, Ryan-2023, O'Mahony-2023, Murray-2022, Sexton-2022, Stockdale-2023, Aki-2023, Henshaw-2022, Ringrose-2022, Earls-2022.



  • Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    10 is vitally important in terms of planning for the next world Cup.

    Right now Sexton is so far ahead of any of the other options it would be insane not to see can he be our starting 10 in France as his swansong. If he doesn't get that far fine but it is worth the attempt and his mentality won't be an issue. Clear as day to me that Carbery isn't the answer or Billy Burns or Carty. Three names right now look feasible and we need to develop two of them. Ross Byrne will never be Sexton but is ultra reliable , used to playing at the highest levels in Leinster and for me the ideal 3rd 10 but if he ends up being one or two with injuries then he won't let us down. As we speak the other two slots are Harry Byrne and Healy and that is a straight shoot out for me at the moment.

    Decisions need to be made now in terms of development and gametime and that looks like it for me now, sometimes you have to make a call and get on with it. It will realistically take the next 18 months or so to bed down Harry and Healy and see who is better in an international context. Both are risky options but gut feel says they have high potential.

    No doubt there will be a battery of Carty, Carbery and perhaps even Billy Burns arguments but that is the way I see it atm and suggest it is the way forward.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    I dont see how its clear as day that Carbery/Billy Burns or Carty are not definitely not answer but that the two Byrnes/Healy might be. Ross Byrne is solid. He plays some big games for Leinster but so often is on bench for very important games as Sexton is picked and Harry Byrne and Healy are full of potential but have feck all experience for now(about 25 games each in pro rugby) and are behind all the others for now.

    You cant say that Carty etc are clearly not the answer and that we should put so much more on to the younger options.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,342 ✭✭✭dublin49


    I would rather try and get Carty's kick average up allied to working on his consistency than trying to make Ross Byrne a more attacking threat.Healy/Crowley/H Byrne are no further along than Carbery was when he was being hailed as the 2nd Coming.For me its Carty 1 /Ross Byrne 2 after Sexton and let the kids develop or not to a stage where we know alot more about their ability to play at the highest level .



  • Registered Users Posts: 922 ✭✭✭ujjjjjjjjj


    Just an opinion that I don't see a high quality international outhalf in Carty, Carbery or Burns. Healy and Harry have the potential and Ross provides the stability / fallback and you know exactly what you are going to get.

    Player development often is based on gut feel and that is what my gut says. Of course Farrell and the guys will have their own gut feel and process and that's fine too but just the way I see it.

    Other may see it differently of course.

    For 10 as it such an important slot I think you need to make advance plans and develop players but make a call on who now. In terms of international fixtures is actually isn't that many games before the next world cup and because of Sexton's dominance and obvious class difference (there is no one close in Ireland at the moment) I believe we have to take a bit of punt now otherwise we risk going into another world cup with no clear path and a whole set of players Carty, Burns, Healy, Carty Byrnes x 2 etc all getting dribs and drabs and not proper development.

    Sometimes you have to make a call and the pressing need to give adequate development time is key.

    Anyway if I was Farrell right now that's what I'd be doing..........Sexton (wing and a prayer and play it by ear) but develop Harry and Healy with lots of game time and then mix in Ross Byrne too but I am fairly sure we know what we get with him so a shoe in for me. If Sexton is firing fit for France then you make a direct call with Harry / Healy and bring Ross too.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    They very literally took a chance on youth by openly discarding every player over a certain age once Galthié took the reins, and not with the intention of winning the 6 nations but with the 2023 world cup as a target. The 6 nations is Ireland's holy grail; we will never sacrifice it for long-term gain which is the main reason we crash and burn every single time at the World Cup. We just don't put enough emphasis on it with squad building during the years in between tournaments, instead putting all our eggs in the 6N basket. Some people are happy with that, they'd prefer picking up a tournament win every couple of years and keeping the books balanced while never making any progress on the big stage. Others are less happy with that, seeing the six nations as a much less prestigious tournament and an annual opportunity to put together a squad fit to challenge for the World Cup.

    France have been in three World Cup finals. They've a great opportunity to be in another one in 2023, or even win it. We've never been within an ass's roar of one and we're not going to do in two years' time either.

    While that's maybe not 'success' on paper, it's a sight more ambitious than what we've been doing.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    I'm so incredibly far from convinced that our "main problem" is not enough squad building in between world cups. It certainly was not the problem in 2011, you could make an argument for 2015 but I think the level of injuries/specific players who were injured had us goosed no matter what. 2019 we just weren't very good. Also, always worth mentioning that the only NH team to ever actually win the RWC did not do what everyone is suggesting.

    Also I'd take actual 6N wins over semi final appearances any day of the week.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,551 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    “We just don't put enough emphasis on [the RWC] with squad building during the years in between tournaments, instead putting all our eggs in the 6N basket.”

    But surely Farrell has been doing exactly that with 22 new caps in 16 games? Even at 10, which is where this discussion started, he’s given debuts to Burns and Harry Byrne, and given Ross Byrne his 2nd Test start.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,915 ✭✭✭Lost Ormond


    But we've never once won a knock out game in a world cup. We've never won a game where it was win or go home in knockouts. Id take one of them over an actual 6 Nations win at this stage. we've done it there. grand slams, wins over everyone home and away bar NZ in NZ yet not once have we done it in a world cup.

    Yes i would agree about problem not being not enough squad buidling



  • Registered Users Posts: 17,795 ✭✭✭✭bilston


    Beat Japan and Argentina

    Have another 4 or 5 guys that become genuine contenders for the matchday squad when we come to play England/France/Wales in the 6Ns

    Continued development of our attacking game

    And a great atmosphere and full houses for the three matches (Sunday afternoon against Argentina isn't ideal though!).

    As I mentioned previously I would genuinely rotate a few guys in against NZ. If Gavin Coombes can perform against NZ, he can perform against anyone. Give him and one or two others the opportunity and then come the 6Ns there will be no fears about picking these lads!



  • Registered Users Posts: 11,333 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    To be absolutely fair Gavin Coombes isn’t not getting picked because of any fear of him being ready, it’s because he plays in probably out strongest position with two quality 8s already there plus a pile of back row options.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    Yeah, I mean starting Doris or Conan is hardly a backwards looking option.



  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 26,480 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    The never having won a knockout game thing rankles me, don't get me wrong. I hate it. The reasons for it are myriad and frustrating. A lot of the time it was cause we just weren't good enough (people underestimate just how awful we were in the 90s). I don't really give it much thought outside of a couple months every four years though...



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,211 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Winning a knockout game to progress to a S/F will have less impact on sponsors and the general public than winning the 6Ns.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Sexton shouldn't have been anywhere near the Covid Cup, nor any Italy game in the last three years. POM, Healy, Earls and a few more should have been excused as well.



  • Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    I don’t closely follow French rugby, but guys in their 30s like Le Roux and Dulin are still starting for them. If memory serves they only had 4 or 5 guys under the age of 25 in their starting 15 against us in the 6Ns. Sure their age profile is younger than ours, but it should be given their resources. They are still putting out a team averaging in the region of the late 20s. That’s not that young.

    The point remains the same though. They have the resources to give more opportunities to younger guys. We do not. They have special talents like DuPont coming through. We do not. They are still in a decade long rut when it comes to silverware. We are not. They were stuck for Test quality half backs for a long time. We were not.

    Sure they are being ambitious. I’m ambitious every time I do the lotto. I had plenty of ambitious nights in night clubs in my youth. Ambition doesn’t mean much by itself. The simple fact is that this ambition has led to nothing so far. And no other country has taken that approach and seen it pay off. So why is there an assumption that what France is doing is right? What if they fail to win the 6Ns over the next few years and then fail to win the RWC? Would it have been the right approach then? If they are facing 15+ years without a trophy will people be applauding their ambition still?

    France is the biggest, best resourced and wealthiest rugby nation on earth. They should be at the top consistently. They haven’t been and they still aren’t. We are far, far behind them in most aspects and yet have achieved a consistency they could only dream of. The two countries couldn’t be more different at the moment. So I don’t see any value in comparing the two.



  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,382 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    The closest we ever came was in 1991.

    France, Argentina, Australia, Wales... we were plenty good enough to beat those teams in the 2000s/2010s



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  • Registered Users Posts: 24,745 ✭✭✭✭molloyjh


    And Argentina aside, all those teams were plenty good enough to beat us at the time as well. One of them even had home advantage. And against Argentina we had lost almost the entire spine of our team.

    The simple fact is that there is no point looking back before 2007. We weren’t top 4 in the world prior to that.

    2007 - coaches got the prep all wrong, not focusing enough on the actual rugby part of the rugby.

    2011 - we had a head coach who had no idea how to play the game after the rule changes and IMO pissed away some of what should have been the best years in Irish rugby.

    2015 - we lost far too many players to injury/suspension. I doubt many teams, if any at all, could have survived such an absentee list.

    2019 - the first year that I would say we probably bottled it. The focus shifted to that tournament very early and when short term performances suffered a collective panic seemed to set in leading us to hugely underperforming.

    There has been no single reason for our RWC failures and so no single solution will fix our record there.



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