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Energy infrastructure

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭josip


    posted by dolanbaker 3 days ago in YLYL; prescient.




  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Interesting. 360 MW Silvermines pumped-storage plant to be submitted to An Bord Pleanála in Q1 2023.




  • Registered Users Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Jaysus, I've exceeded my free full IT articles for the month, but what I can see in the first few lines of that article is abysmal.

    Next year or Q1 2023, which is it lads?

    360 MW, 200,000 homes. It's a battery lads, what's important is how long it can supply for.

    When I was younger journalists were educated and respected.



  • Registered Users Posts: 232 ✭✭specialbyte


    It's really hard to find good information online about either Turlough Hill or Silvermines Pumped Hydro. There's some comparison information here (https://silvermineshydro.ie/about-silvermines/).  Turlough Hill comprises 4 reversible pump turbines with a combined capacity of 292MW, with approximately 573,000MWh annual storage capacity. The proposed Silvermines Hydro’s 360MW plant offers approximately 650,000MWh annual storage capacity. It's hard to figure out what the max storage amount of energy (in GWH) is for the Silvermines project (or Turlough Hill). Anyone know this information?

    Edit: or I could just read the wiki page for Turlough Hill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turlough_Hill_Power_Station)

    It can generate electricity at full load for up to six hours per day

    So roughly 1,752 MWh of storage in Turlough Hill. I suspect you'll find that silvermines is roughly in the same neck of the woods if we estimate based on the annual storage capacity numbers from the silvermines website.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight



    Did someone mention battery ?


    It's been awarded a Marine Construction Licence and Once constructed and fully operational, these gas caverns will hold around 500 million cubic metres of natural gas and provide security of supply during peak demand for up to 14 days for Northern Ireland.


    Unrelated : Interconnectors in the Med. Malta has a 200MW import/export interconnector with Sicily.

    And there was a feasibility study awarded for a 600MW Sicily - Tunisia interconnector



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    https://www.intelligentcio.com/eu/2021/09/28/siemens-energy-and-sumitomo-electric-to-supply-power-link-hvdc-technology/#

    Siemens Energy, together with its consortium partner Sumitomo Electric, have signed a contract with Greenlink Interconnector Limited. Siemens Energy will deliver the high-voltage direct current (HVDC) converter technology for the 190km electricity interconnector Greenlink. The 500-megawatt HVDC link will connect the power grids of Ireland and Great Britain. As the power can flow in either direction, depending on supply and demand in each country, it allows both countries to benefit from increased grid stability, security of power supply and cost-effective growth and integration of low carbon energy. Work will begin at the start of 2022 following financial close.

    HVDC technology offers the most efficient means of transmitting large amounts of power over long distances. Siemens Energy will be responsible for the overall system design and the construction of two converter stations located close to the Great Island transmission substation in County Wexford (Ireland) and the Pembroke transmission substation in Pembrokeshire (Wales). Both converter stations will use Siemens Energy’s market leading HVDC PLUS technology with modular multi-level arrangement (VSC-MMC) to convert Alternating Current to Direct Current and vice versa. Linked via an HVDC XLPE (crosslinked polyethylene) cable system by Sumitomo, the stations will enable the low-loss transport of energy with a voltage of 320 kilovolts. Siemens Energy’s scope of supply also includes a Service and Maintenance Agreement with an initial duration of seven years.

    James O’Reilly, CEO of Greenlink, said: “We are delighted to have reached another significant milestone in the delivery of the Greenlink project with the signing of the contract with Siemens Energy and Sumitomo Electric. Greenlink is one of Europe’s most important energy infrastructure projects, contributing to energy security, regional investment, jobs and the cost effective integration of low carbon energy and we have chosen a consortium with exceptional experience, skill and standing in the energy and engineering sector for this major undertaking. We will be looking to maximise local supply chain benefits during the three-year construction period and we look forward to working with Siemens Energy and Sumitomo Electric towards successful commissioning in 2024.”

    Beatrix Natter, Executive Vice President Transmission at Siemens Energy, said: “Interconnectors like Greenlink play a critical role in strengthening the share of renewable sources in the European energy mix and bolstering energy security. We at Siemens Energy are very pleased that Greenlink chose our state-of-the-art HVDC technology, adding a new lighthouse project to our proven track record of ten HVDC projects in implementation and more than 59 successfully completed projects worldwide.”

    Greenlink has key strategic importance, as it will provide significant additional interconnection between Ireland and Great Britain, with onward connections to continental Europe. Leading to more import and export capacity in both countries, GreenLink will enable a diversified energy mix, bolster European energy security and ultimately make the enhanced integration of renewable energy possible. The European Union has recognised Greenlink’s contribution to security of supply and the environment by designating it a ‘Project of Common Interest’.


    Things starting to move on the 'Greenlink' interconnector between Wexford and Wales. This will be 500MW (both directions) HVDC interconnector, which will increase our interconnect capacity to Britain by 50% (from 1GW to 1.5GW). Interesting it's a consortium made up of Siemens and Sumitomo.





  • Registered Users Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭josip


    Anyone know the reasoning behind the dog leg route? It's not like we have to keep it away from the Turks.

    I would have thought the sea floor was fairly consistent in that area.



  • Registered Users Posts: 20,047 ✭✭✭✭cnocbui


    They tend to try to have as much of submarine cables as deep as possible as it saves on trenching costs and reduces chances of fishing and anchor acccidents. They also don't want to drape cables over undersea cliffs so choose routes which have gradual and even transitions between deep and shallow bits.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,719 ✭✭✭roadmaster


    if there was any truth in the above article what would it take and how long would it take to refire the stations. Have they beong stripped of equipment yet? The Station staff and the BNM staff have being paid off. It was discusssed on one of the radio stations the other day. The way they made out all they have to do is flick a switch which i dont believe for a second. After the headline in todays indo prepare for government panicing!



  • Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,402 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    Post edited by Peregrine on


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    3.6GW, 13% loss over 3,800km - I doubt it will be built soon but it shows what's technically possible.

    The cable will follow a route that reaches 700m below sea-level at its deepest point - reducing the risk of damage from anchors and fishing gear. "It's not the shortest route to the UK but it has the lowest technical challenges.


    Article also has info on the Norway North Sea Link cable which had to contend with a landlocked lake, a mountain and steep fjords. ... had to negotiate almost 100 crossings between Norway and the UK, says Mrs Opiyo-Mullings. ... "There are parts that are steeper than a ski jump.".



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Think if they didn't get one of them up heads would roll ,



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭gjim



    It'll never happen. Shannonbridge is only 150MW and electricity produced by burning peat is considerably more expensive than any alternative. Peat is the dirtiest, least efficient, most expensive and most CO2 intensive fossil fuel used for electricity generation - it's considerably dirtier than burning lignite (brown "coal") while being expensive. It was complete nonsense 20 years ago when Mary O'Rourke made her mission to fight the EU (competition law) in order to force the ESB to build the plant as a "support" to Bord na Mona and at a stroke, landed everyone in the country with higher electricity bills "to protect our indigenous fuel capacity". It's a pretty crazy thing to say as someone concerned about global warming, but using more of the spare coal burning capacity in Moneypoint would be preferable on environmental and cost grounds.



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭gjim


    The "Just have a think" guy on youtube (who I highly recommend) had a good video on it with a bit more detail: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJunxkln578



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,431 ✭✭✭embraer170


    Watched a YouTube video on the Xlinks project the other day (Just have a think channel). All sounds interesting until you check the background of the company CEO. It seems his main (current) experience is as CEO of grounds maintenance company. He did however get an EY Entrepreneur Of The Year award back in 2018, if that means anything.



  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 91,207 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    Another scheme

    A Bridgend company is leading plans to build a £1.7bn renewable energy project on Swansea's waterfront.

    The Blue Eden scheme includes a tidal lagoon and floating solar panels.

    This is the third proposal to develop a tidal lagoon in Swansea Bay, and would include a battery factory and a data centre run on renewable energy. And floating houses.

    Third time lucky ? The key is that the tidal and solar are 320MW each and they aren't intending to supply the national grid so it's the Welsh government not the Westminster who decides if it's to go ahead. Oh and the battery maker is leading the project.



  • Registered Users Posts: 8,451 ✭✭✭Markcheese



    I heard the just have a think one this morning - and then the real engineering one showed up a couple of minutes ago ..

    Slava ukraini 🇺🇦



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,328 ✭✭✭Banana Republic 1




  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    I don't agree that lignite is cleaner than peat. It may have a higher energy density but it is a sedimentary rock formed from peat and is as such adulterated and things other than hydrocarbon are burnt.

    burning peat in the midlands away from population centres doesn't affect health. It ensures security of supply within the borders of the nation and provides economic stimulus. Gas doesn't just arrive in Ireland by magic and the cost of delivering it to the point of usage is not factored in to its footprint fully.

    It still isn't clean but it would have been better to keep those plants open as long as possible until Ireland could transition to something sustainably renewable like offshore with proper backup energy supply rather than switching over to Gas.

    In the same way as Germany still burns Lignite, Ireland should be burning Peat with a clear plan to transition directly to renewable.

    Germany should have kept their nuclear plants open too until direct transition to renewable was possible.

    Still, what is done, is done and looks impossible to roll back now.



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Still, what is done, is done and looks impossible to roll back now.

    I know, it's great that ABP took the decision out of the hands of the govt which resulted in the peat power plants being shutdown. One of the best ABP decisions ever



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    We will disagree. Energy independence is important but ABP has no competency w.r.t. to strategically important topics such as these.



  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    We've had a total of 10 peat power plants in the state, providing a total of 433MW of power if all were running.

    Peat was never going to give us energy independence

    You want energy independence, you need to look at other sources

    Even our tiny hydro setup beats it at 510MW



  • Posts: 2,827 [Deleted User]


    The Finish designed fluid bed ones despite their issues with acid were a good contribution to the grid.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,659 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Interesting article about how big offshore turbines are getting:

    Pretty amazing how fast this industry is advancing, in just 4 years they have gone from the biggest turbine being "just" 8MW, to 15MW today. Almost doubling in 4 years!

    Also depressing to read that the UK already has 10.5 GW of offshore wind capacity installed and we still have non! 10.5GW would be almost double our needs. If we built the same, we would have enough to feed 100% of Irish homes when the wind was blowing and could use the excess to generate hydrogen, pumped storage, battery storage, etc. for when the wind isn't blowing and export on inter-connectors.



  • Registered Users Posts: 13,861 ✭✭✭✭josip


    The none bit is the depressing part, I don't think it's realistic to think that we also could have 10.5GW installed.

    The UK have a much longer coastline with I suspect more shallow areas for anchoring.

    The experience of working with North Sea oilfields would also have helped.

    Has green Hydrogen generation happened anywhere yet in the world?

    We have very few location suitable for cost effective pumped battery storage.

    And our interconnection is currently 20% of what would be required to export the excess.

    So if we built the same wind turbine capacity, we would need to do one or more of

    • successfully commercialise an entirely new technology,
    • build the world's largest grid battery
    • quintuple our interconnection
    • get pumped storage applications past ABP




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,914 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    We wont be the ones to commercialise the new technology, but there is huge money being invested in green hydrogen. I wouldnt bet against it within the decade.

    We probably will end up increasing our interconnection by a factor of three or four.

    Pumped Storage is a great idea, but as you say, that is probably a bridge too far. The environmental impacts are often huge.



  • Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,659 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    "I don't think it's realistic to think that we also could have 10.5GW installed."

    It will be needed to reach our 2050 goals and is largely what is planned.

    I should clarify that we don't need to build 10.5 GW of purely offshore wind, but we will need close to that including onshore wind. We currently have 4.2GW of onshore wind and the plan I believe is to add another 5GW of offshore wind. That will give us 9.2GW of total wind.

    That is obviously a lot more then we would need to generate 100% of our energy needs on a windy day. The excess will go to producing hydrogen, driving the existing and perhaps future pumped storage, filling lithium ion, iron air, flow batteries, etc. and of course exporting on interconnectors.

    The alternative option is to keep the gas plants on standby and use carbon capture and storage technology for them to be net zero.

    "So if we built the same wind turbine capacity, we would need to do one or more of"

    You say that like any of those are particularly difficult. Interconnectors are a well proven technology already used in Ireland. Building 3 to 4 times more wouldn't be particularly expensive (in the scheme of big energy projects) and would allow us to become a net exporter of energy. We already export twice as much electricity over our existing interconnectors as we import. So we actually make money off them.

    As for Hydrogen and grid scale batteries, while we obviously won't be the ones commercialising these technologies. I think you are massively underestimating the amount of money that is being poured into these technologies around the world. These technologies are the new gold rush, with vast sums being poured into their development.

    Worse case scenario, we just build the tried and tested interconnectors. But all these other technologies will also be competing for the spot to support wind power. In the end it will simply come down to which is cheapest (and still do the job obviously).



  • Registered Users Posts: 1,051 ✭✭✭Paddico


    Must be 3 years ago since the announced floating wind turbines off the coast of Mayo.

    Has anyone heard of progress since. A quick google has yielded nathin



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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    The west coast developments are further behind than the east coast due to the depth of the waters. But the potential off the west coast is insane. The size of the area, the wind speeds available....... honestly we could end up with a Saudi Arabia level of surplus energy if they went the whole hog on it.

    They are progressing legislation to provide a planning framework for applications as right now there is nothing so any potential investors are waiting for that legislation.

    Next up is the hub development at Foynes for green hydrogen and turbine manufacturing but I don't know if the second part will be feasible.

    The 2020-2030 period is likely to remain focused on the East Coast with the ramp up off the west coast likely starting late 2020's,but that's just my opinion



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