Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

AbusesToilets · 26-10-2021 5:14pm

things I'd like to see from these tests: Mike Catt getting fired.

molloyjh · 26-10-2021 5:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118075961#Comment_118075961

Lovely. Really lovely.

FFS.

ionadnapokot · 26-10-2021 6:10pm

It's the abject failure to perform in the '19, '15 and '11 1/4 finals that was the real issue.

The cold hard truth is that Ireland will not be going beyond the 1/4s in '23. France and NZ are a cut above.

Leaving aside the WC, my biggest concern is that Ireland looked to be a badly coached and poorly selected side in 2020 6N and were much the same in 2021 6N going into that last game v Eng. They performed really well in that game, albeit against a frankly poor English side.

Was that performance a blip or the start of something? Wearingly Sexton, Murray, Healy and Earls are still in situ, 10 years on from that 2011 debacle.

I don't know what Farrell is hoping to build upon with all of those players still front and centre. But I am certain it's a side that is overdue a major overhaul and is going to struggle to win another 6N for at least the next couple of years.

molloyjh · 26-10-2021 6:21pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076236#Comment_118076236

I think we just need to acknowledge that while we have a lot of good players we have very few top players. 10 years ago we had Healy at his best, POC, SOB, David Wallace, Ferris, Heaslip, Sexton, BOD and even Rob Kearney who was still there or thereabouts. We don’t have many players like that any more, if any. We have to expect that we’re going to experience the odd trough, like everyone else does. If the extent of that trough is a few 3rd place finishes and a general 5th place position in the rankings, then we are actually doing pretty well.

Former Former Former · 26-10-2021 6:27pm

Don't think there's any real basis to think France are "a cut above" us at the moment. I'd put us about level.

Podge_irl · 26-10-2021 6:27pm

Well...Sexton didn't start in the 2011 debacle which was part of the problem.

2011 was a massive screw up. 2015 was not a failure to perform - we lost the exact 5 players we could not afford to lose given our gameplan. '19 was a team in bad form playing to their level, I wouldn't call it a failure to perform. It was very disappointing though.

RichieRich_89 · 26-10-2021 6:33pm

I think I'd like to see a back three of 11. Simon Zebo, 14. Robert Baloucoune and 15. Hugo Keenan against the All Blacks.

TomsOnTheRoof · 26-10-2021 6:43pm

Personally I think 2019 was worse than 2011. At least in 2011 we beat Aus. In 2019 we lost to Japan in the pool stages and then failed to perform in the quarters.

Podge_irl · 26-10-2021 6:52pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076384#Comment_118076384

Reasonable view, but that's exactly what makes 2011 so much worse for me.

aloooof · 26-10-2021 8:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076290#Comment_118076290

I think this is spot on tbh. Unless I'm forgetting someone, I think Furlong is possibly the only one in the current squad that I think is currently of that calibre. Ryan was looking like the next most likely to get to that level, but he's recently had injury and/or form issues. Similarly, Ringrose.

Beyond that Doris, Keenan, Coombes and Kelleher all have the potential to get into that bracket imo. The likes of Porter, Stockdale, Larmour and Baloucoune too. But they're not quite there yet.

aloooof · 26-10-2021 8:08pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076384#Comment_118076384

This is my take as well. I think it was our first time topping our pool and also beating a SH team in the RWC. But then it made the QF all the more disappointing. I think that's the most disappointed I've ever been after a match.

Former Former Former · 26-10-2021 8:14pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076793#Comment_118076793

I think Henshaw belongs in this category too, but we're definitely in a dip at the moment

aloooof · 26-10-2021 8:39pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076832#Comment_118076832

Yep, I had a feeling I was forgetting someone.

accensi0n · 26-10-2021 9:12pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076807#Comment_118076807

Definitely that game that didn't happen in 2013 for me.

ionadnapokot · 26-10-2021 10:00pm

I would use this French side as a comparison to indicate how far ahead of Ireland they are in terms of player quality, squad development and future chances of winning a 6N (or WC!).

They finished ahead of Ireland in last 2 6N and went into the last round of both with a chance of winning. Beating Ireland handily in '20 and in reverse gear in '21.

They have also been blooding an exceptionally talented halfback pairing since 2019 6N. To compare -

Irish halfbacks: 68 years OLD. 200+ test caps. France: 46 years of age. 40+ test caps.

Ireland has a former (2017) world class partnership and France a potential world class partnership (Dupont obv. is world class).

Ollivon and Fickou are also world class and leaders. Marchand and Aldritt exceptional in the specialist positions in a pack of real depth and power.

The oldest of those 6 players will be 28 at the end of the 6N. Which they will win and probably with a Grand Slam.

But at least Ireland are planning for the future!!

https://www.rte.ie/sport/rugby/2021/1026/1255932-world-cup-on-the-horizon-for-ireland-says-sexton/

Former Former Former · 26-10-2021 10:06pm

Across the last three Six Nations, France have won exactly the same number of games as Ireland.

If they're vastly superior to us, they're keeping it well hidden.

AbusesToilets · 26-10-2021 10:22pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118076126#Comment_118076126

how many more seasons do you want to waste with him notionally coaching the attack? He should've been fired last year, we've been utterly bereft in our attacking plan, no shape, no clear philosophy. Trash.

ersatz · 26-10-2021 10:44pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077425#Comment_118077425

Their record over the past decade against Ireland is pretty bad, for France. Ireland won 6, France won 3, 1 draw.

aloooof · 26-10-2021 10:45pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077396#Comment_118077396

“They have also been blooding an exceptionally talented halfback pairing since 2019 6N”

Going into the 2019 6 Nations, we were coming off the back of our most successful year ever, having won 3 of the previous 5 championships. Our starting 10 was World Player of the Year. Our starting 9 was considered one of the 2 best SH’s in the world.

In reverse chronological order, France had finished 4th, 3rd, 5th, 4th, 4th in the previous 5 years. Ireland had finished 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 1st, 1st.

That’s the context, at least partly, of why France decided to blood a young half-back pairing and we didn’t. They were in far greater need of an overhaul.

Now, we’re in far greater need of an overhaul, and that’s what I expect to see over the next while (tho I’m fairly certain the talent that’s available to us isn’t quite the same that was available to France, alas).

aloooof · 26-10-2021 10:48pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077147#Comment_118077147

I don’t know what you’re talking about, but the wins in 2016 and 2018 have helped ease the pain of that thing that never happened.

Dubinusa · 26-10-2021 11:03pm

Looking at the world cup draw, I don't have a lot of faith. Our draw was awful.

But we will persevere

molloyjh · 26-10-2021 11:03pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077507#Comment_118077507

That doesn’t excuse you being a dick about it. You’re hoping someone loses their job. That says nothing about Catt and a whole lot about you.

aloooof · 26-10-2021 11:05pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118075752#Comment_118075752

I get what you’re saying RE: Sexton and the ANC. But of the 2 6 Nations games vs Italy that Farrell has been in charge for, POM and Earls have started neither. Healy started one of the 2. In fairness to Farrell, he’s at least partially doing what you’re asking.

I don’t understand the criticism he’s getting for not building the squad when he’s comfortably been the most willing coach we’ve had to give guys a chance since Gatland had his infamous overhaul. As I’ve mentioned plenty of times, he’s given 22 new caps in 16 games. That compares very favourably with his predecessors:

Joe Schmidt - 22 new caps took 32 games

Declan Kidney - 22 new caps took 20 games

Eddie O’Sullivan - 22 new caps took 47 games

I’d wager it compares favourably with his peers as well, maybe Galthie excepted.

CMcsporty · 26-10-2021 11:43pm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077425#Comment_118077425

Is that stat to indicate a positive correlation between the two sides?

Results, performance and age profile show a negative correlation.

If both sides played tomorrow there is nothing to suggest that the result will be any different from the previous two results.

To suggest otherwise would be “delusional”

molloyjh · 27-10-2021 12:29am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077859#Comment_118077859

They only beat us by 2 points the last time we played. That’s not something to suggest a massive superiority. Even the game before that was only an 8 point game that was only really won in the second half as our bench made a negative impact due to all the injuries we had at the time.

I find it incredible the way some people want to frame things when discussing this stuff. France have only been clearly better than us in 1 game in the last how many!? And that’s when we had a load of injuries and were playing in France.

I’m more than happy to recognise that this is not a vintage Ireland team, but the apparent idolisation of a team that should be beating us 8 times of of 10 and has struggled to do anything of the sort for 15 or so years seems really odd. The cynic in me would believe that it’s driven by confirmation bias. Me want young player, France play young player, France good. And maybe I’m being too cynical, but the complete lack of perspective is hard to see past.

TRC10 · 27-10-2021 5:06am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077701#Comment_118077701

I actually think it's a good thing.

I believe that at a World Cup, every team has one big performance in them, and after that they very rarely get to that level again in the tournament, and often they bomb after it (us in the last 3, Argentina 2015, England in 2019)

In 2011 ours was against Aus. 2015 it was France. England's in 2019 was against NZ. SA managed to save theirs until the final because of the draw they got (Japan and Wales).

As long as we get past Scotland, we can go into the SA pool game at about 70/80% knowing that it's not a "must win game". Meaning we can save our "world cup final" performance for the 1/4 final against NZ or France. And for the first time ever, we may actually show up for a knockout game.

At this stage, if you offered me a performance in a 1/4 with not necessarily a win, I'd take it. Because the fact that we, without fail, roll over and have our tummies tickled hurts more than the fact that we've never won a knockout game.

ersatz · 27-10-2021 5:10am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077961#Comment_118077961

I agree with your post here, for a very long time Ireland couldn’t beat ordinary French teams or poor french teams. But it’s worth pointing out that while we’ve declined for a couple of years they’ve been building a decent team. And but for Kelleher’s lucky line out try the score this year could have been uglier.

Former Former Former · 27-10-2021 6:58am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/118077859#Comment_118077859

It's not a "correlation" at all, it's a statement of fact.

Our results are the same. Performances are very subjective but if France are performing much better than us, it's not reflected in their results. We're ahead of them in the world rankings BTW. Our age profile is fine with the exception of our outhalf.

So I'll repeat it, if France have it cracked and are much better than us, what are they waiting for?

AdamD · 27-10-2021 8:31am

We should be worried about France if they figure out how to run a rugby team. Right now they're the biggest waste of resources in world rugby

OneLungDavy · 27-10-2021 8:50am

All doom and gloom around here, I actually think we'll win the 6 Nations.

Ireland Team Talk XII: Farrell's First Fifteen

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