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"Green" policies are destroying this country

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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,314 ✭✭✭Potatoeman


    Data centres got notified that they will get one hour notice of power outages due to residential demand over winter. They will be cut off and run on their own generators.



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Turns out recycling has been one big scam started by the plastic companies also, very little plastic actually ends up recycled most still goes to incineration or landfill and up until 2016 it was being loaded onto ships and sent to China FFS

    According to the EPA that made little to no difference on our total emissions in 2020 along with the massive reduction in car usage.



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,940 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    We did the opposite and added more duty.

    I know which I'd prefer!



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    On a different thread, I was talking to a climate change 'skeptic' who added up how much it costs to drive 900km in a diesel car, vs how much it costs to charge an electric vehicle to do the same mileage, and his argument was that while the Electric car was cheaper, it wasn't cheap enough to justify the inconvenience of having to charge his car along the way.

    Making fossil fuels more expensive compared with carbon neutral energy, is required to make people who don't care about the environment, to make the selfish decision to choose the cheaper option for themselves.

    Taxing polluting fuel and subsidising renewable/sustainable fuel will achieve this. But the problem is the taxes are so low that it's only annoying people but not high enough to actually prompt people to make the investment to change their car/home heating system etc

    In terms of public buy in, any new taxes should be offset with either direct payments or reduced taxation somewhere else so that people don't see these taxes as revenue generating and people who are struggling to make ends meet, are not impoverished further to fight climate change



  • Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭SupplyandDemandZone


    All good points above but what is your solution?? The Greens definitely don't have one.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,603 ✭✭✭quokula


    Yeah taxes can and do change behaviour, along with education. This worked on cigarettes and fossil fuels need to be treated in exactly the same way.



  • Registered Users Posts: 3,603 ✭✭✭quokula


    And here's the problem. There are still many people who would rather watch the world burn than suffer a minor inconvenience or have a few less quid in their pocket. And there's enough of them that it wins votes for political parties with no morals.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,477 ✭✭✭Damien360


    There are no politicians anywhere with morals so you can bin that argument. The greens in the last government made sure they got plum minister jobs just before they were heaved out to make sure the pension was good. That’s on record.

    If taxes were actually ring fenced for their respective “causes”, then you might get some level of acceptance of the tax. But it quite simply never is and it’s seen as a money grab. Those of us that actually pay tax, and it’s a diminishing number in ireland, pay plenty already.



  • Registered Users Posts: 29,304 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78




  • Registered Users Posts: 14,141 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    What generation? The only people I know with 2 houses and holiday homes and all that jazz are boomers.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    A mass cull of most of the humans on earth would do more too.

    There are plenty of ways to reduce carbon footprint - but isn't the point of doing so because they project that global warming will pose a threat to human life?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Solar, Wind, Nuclear, Tidal, Geothermal, Heat Pumps, Nuclear, Hydroelectric, balanced by local and grid level storage and hydrogen powered gas turbines (hydrogen generated from excess power when renewables are producing more than power than we immediately need)



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Humans have already stopped the next ice age from happening by increasing CO2 concentrations from 280ppm to 413ppm



  • Registered Users Posts: 14,141 ✭✭✭✭Thelonious Monk


    a mass cull would only slow down the inevitable destruction. Even if we halved the population and carried on as we are our days would be numbered. The way we live needs to fundamentally change (which it wont).



  • Registered Users Posts: 21,940 ✭✭✭✭ELM327


    What nonsense.

    We have an EV and a petrol car (7 seater, budget 2k, no EV available) so I'm not anti EV. I just am anti punitive taxes when there's no realistic alternative.

    Over €1 of each litre is tax. So of the €1.71 thats at the garage where I bought my lunch today, over €1 goes to the government coffers. For each litre. Who does that target? I'm lucky that we can afford such luxuries as an EV - but other folks only have 2k for one car and thus are punished by these unfair taxes without a viable alternative. Our seven seater is a meagre 2004 VW, it costs nearly €100 to fill it from empty and only does 500km per tank.

    I've paid effective income tax of over 30% for the past few years, so this is another 30% tax again!



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    This is why we cannot blame individuals, we need top down action. We need the government to either build the BEV charging infrastructure or incentivise others to build it, we need grants and regulations to make it economically viable to replace oil and gas boilers with electric heating systems, and also to improve insulation to reduce the energy required to heat a home, and we need scrappage schemes to get people to swich to BEVs from ICE cars

    I think an excellent idea would be to have a scrappage scheme for the Engine of your car, so if you have a nice car that is mechanically sound, you can scrap the engine, and convert it to BEV for a low cost. There is a company in Wicklow who can do these conversions for under 6k a car, if there was a 3-4k scrappage scheme, many people would be prepared to do this, and then have a car worth more than 2k afterwards that can run for years to come, while also increasing the BEV national fleet




  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Where does it stop though? Fuel prices have gone through the roof and are having a major effect on everyday lives, people can't afford to just go out and buy a new electric car on a whim and even those that might have nowhere to charge them because they are totally priced out of housing so what benefit is there to increasing carbon taxes except to punish the poor?

    The vast majority of electric cars I see are €60k+ high end luxury items being driven around cities by above average income people who have access to public transport, the people who do the most amount of driving cant afford that and arnt convinced about the real world range of electric cars.

    The whole "cars are evil" argument seems to have totally lost any merit considering our total emissions barely dropped last year.



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer




  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    If the Greens talked about ending growth or austerity, they would never get elected and nothing would ever be done about climate change.

    The political reality is that the solution to climate change needs to be as painless as possible for people to buy into it. There are ways of doing this but it does involve a restructuring of how wealth is distributed around the world, which at the moment is completely distorted towards a very small number of extremely wealthy individuals

    After WW2, the world needed to be rebuilt, we need a mindset similar to the marshall plan, where we need to rebuild the world in a way that is economically and environmentally sustainable

    Money is a tool that we need to use to make the world a better place, not just as a mechanism for the 0.001% of the global population to hoover up assets to make themselves feel important



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    The price of Oil is going up because the oil companies know they can sell it at that price. If there was a 20c increase in fuel duty, the oil companies would still sell it for the same price, just make less profit per litre

    Its gas, Exxon increase prices by 30c a litre, people grumble but pay

    the Greens add a carbon tax of 2c a litre 'It's a disgrace, those greens are ruining the country'



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  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    I absolutely understand where you're coming from. We need to put serious pressure on our politicians to help lower income households to transition to sustainable and renewable energy.

    This will take investment, a lot of investment, but failing to do that will cost much more in the long run.



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    Have you any proof of that statement?

    Funny fact for you, technically the earth is in an ice age right now - there is ice at either pole year round so we are in an ice age. And you say we've stopped the next one already, before this one has ended?



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Carbon taxes are not supposed to be revenue generating taxes. They should be revenue neutral.

    I think we should increase the carbon tax to be 40c a litre, and then calculate how much revenue this will make in the year, and then divide this number by the population of the country, and give that much money back to every household as a grant

    back of the envelope- Private cars burn about 4 billion litres of oil per year, €0.40 tax on this would be 1.6 billion euros, 5 million people would be a grant of €320 per man woman and child in Ireland

    A family of 5 would get €1600 per year that they could use to either just pay the additional fuel cost, or upgrade their car/insulation etc

    People who don't drive private cars at all would get a windfall that they can use to offset their public transport costs, or buy an e-scooter or electric assisted bike or whatever, people who drive the most, would have the greatest incentive to go electric as their fuel bills would increase by the greatest amount.

    In the meantime, the extra 40c per litre in tax would make it more attractive for new car purchases to either buy the most efficient Ice car available, or move to BEV.

    There are always the hard cases, the family of poor farmers who live on loop head and need to do high mileage because everything is far away from them, but in general, this is how the carbon taxes should be set up. Not to punish or impoverish people, but to make less polluting options more attractive and allow market forces to organically transition away from fossil fuels



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia




  • Registered Users Posts: 729 ✭✭✭SupplyandDemandZone


    Of course it won't so just enjoy the here and now. You only get one chance at this.



  • Registered Users Posts: 23,246 ✭✭✭✭Dyr


    I wonder will there be some point at which you'll realise you're part of a suicide cult on a societal scale



  • Registered Users Posts: 7,036 ✭✭✭timmyntc


    This means that the Earth system would already be well on the way towards a new glacial state if the pre-industrial CO2 level had been merely 40 p.p.m. lower than it was during the late Holocene, which is consistent with previous results13,21. Whether this narrow escape from glacial inception was natural remains debatable. It has been proposed21 that pre-industrial land use at least partly contributed to the high Holocene CO2 level, but the magnitude of this contribution is very uncertain.

    The paper's theory is that given the CO2 levels pre-industrialisation were not sufficient to yield a glacial inception, since CO2 levels have risen now post industrialisation, we wont see another glacial cold period until atmospheric CO2 falls well below the average during the Holocene which is substantially lower than current levels.

    It plays down significantly the role of Earth's orbit "wobbling", and it also begs the question - if atmospheric CO2 was too high during the last few millenia to trigger an ice age when "conditions were most favourable", there isnt a hope in hell it will ever happen post industrialisation, even if we somehow did manage to achieve true carbon neutrality.

    They also blame historical land use for rising CO2 levels over 2 millenia ago - absurd really. Natural phenomena such as volcanic eruptions would dwarf any CO2 and GHG effect from farming at a time when total anthropomorphic CO2 emissions were absolutely miniscule.

    As with most climate science, it is to be taken with a massive pinch of salt. While ice cores give us the best historical record we can reasonably get, these natural cycles have been going on longer than we can even see evidence of. There are likely other significant factors we dont even know about yet, because we have such a fixation on CO2.



  • Registered Users Posts: 995 ✭✭✭iColdFusion


    Unfortunately there just seems to be a wide scale greenwashing of additional taxation to fill the black hole that is the government coffers, all stick and no carrot, we've had carbon taxes since 2010 with very little to show for it, how they can justify increasing VRT on electric cars and removing hybrid car grant in the last few budgets ill never know.

    People seem to forget we are already paying through the nose for any sort of sporty car when they jump up and down about polluter paying, for example:

    BMW M3 Competition

    UK Starting Price: £76k (€90k) & Road tax: £490

    Ireland Starting Price €128k & road tax: €1250 (barely avoids 2400 bracket!)

    So effectively an extra €30k in tax before its ever turned a wheel, we really don't need to be jacking up fuel prices with VRT the way it is and its going up again in Jan, let that sink in thirty thousand euros



  • Registered Users Posts: 22,408 ✭✭✭✭Akrasia


    Al Irish cars are over-priced compared with the UK and Europe, regardless of how sporty they are

    If anyone was looking at a BMW M3, I would tell them to buy a Porsche Taycan instead, faster, cheaper to run, and won't drop in value like a stone when people realise they can't drive them in cities anymore due to ultra low emissions regulations that are only going to get more and more strict as time goes on.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    The average Jihadi would be placid compared to that guy



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